Ep.17 - Bullion Market Trends with Richard Stelzer of J&J Coins Omaha NE #numismatics #stacking
Technically, are two different markets out there. And when you have a very stable market, both markets mirror each other pretty close. You have the cash market, the physical product market, and then you have the commodities market, which is the piece of paper trading. And when the market is pretty stable, both market prices are real pretty even to each other. But when you start getting the markets either going up or going down very fast, all of a sudden, the two change.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Alright. Hello, folks. Welcome back to the Cabbage Coins podcast. And just before we get started, just want to mention that episode's really been blowing up lately. It's really been doing really well.
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Tony Gryckiewicz:So today I am pretty excited to have a very well experienced, interesting guest with a lot of great knowledge and experience to talk about in the numismatic market, as well as the bullion market. We have Richard Steltzer. Richard is the co founder of PMG. That's, I think it's the Paper Money Guarantee. Did I get that right or no?
Tony Gryckiewicz:What does PMG stand for?
Richard Stelzer:Paper Money Guarantee. Paper Money Guarantee is a sister company of NGC. It's the paper money side of the NGC group, of certified So collection
Tony Gryckiewicz:Richard was a co founder of PMG back in the day, and he's also the co owner of J and J Coins in Omaha, Nebraska. And I asked Richard to be part of this podcast to give us a lot of kind of give us his perspective about the market today. We're going be talking a lot about bullion. We're talking a lot about kind of the unprecedented times that we're in right now with record setting gold prices and record setting silver prices. You know what his kind of experience and his perspective is given, I think more than sixty plus years in coins, fifty plus as a dealer.
Tony Gryckiewicz:So Richard, welcome to the CABG Coins Podcast. Why don't you give a small little introduction about yourself and your experience and tell us a little bit about how you first got started. What was the coin market like when began? You
Richard Stelzer:Well, I'll start from the very beginning. I first started collecting, got introduced into collecting in 1958, late 'fifty eight, 'fifty nine, '9 when they introduced the memorial penny. And my mother gave me the new memorial penny and I thought that was kinda cool. And I went out and bought a book and started collecting in 1959, '59 at that time. And bought one of those little Whitman blue books to start filling holes as a kid, 11 years old at that time.
Richard Stelzer:And so the very first market when I first got into the coin business, some of the older dealers will remember it is what we call the roll market. During the 1960s, a lot of people were collecting rolls, rolls of pennies, particularly rolls of nickels. And like any market, get to get some stuff that's hyped. One of the hype at that time was the 50D nickel. Everybody thought the 50D nickel was gonna be good and the hype and stuff brought the nickel.
Richard Stelzer:I mean, the late 1960s, 50D nickel rolls were selling for almost $1,200 a roll. And today they're probably between 200 and $300 a roll. Okay, So that's one of the you're talking $19.60 dollars at 1,200 So one of the things you gotta be careful is sometimes when you get a market that's being hyped, you don't wanna be buying into the hype because it can be really bad. But at that time during the sixties, silver was legal for people to own, but gold in the bullion form was not legal to own in The US. So and most people including myself were young.
Richard Stelzer:I didn't have the money to buy that and older people who did buy stuff, most coin shops didn't really do much bullion at all. It wasn't till the late sixties that bullion started to come around. And the first real bullion that I remember people talked about were coins that the Austrian 100 Corona that you see now dated 1915. And the thing with that was it was illegal for US citizens to own bullion, but it wasn't illegal for US citizens to own gold coins dated prior to 1933. So the Austrian Mint just pulled out the dice from 1915 and started striking coins dated 1915.
Richard Stelzer:Thus, when you look at the world coin books, they'll say, Restrike. But they could sell them US legally to people. So a lot of people started buying the 100 Kronos because they were 98% of an ounce.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. So when gold ownership became legal again for Americans in 1975, how did that change the landscape of the coin and bullion business? Before that point, what was the business like? Was it primarily, you know, people collecting Lincoln cents?
Richard Stelzer:Then Before that point, he was mostly collector driven with a few collectors that may have wanted to buy gold and stuff. And over the years, as I bought stuff back in the seventies, I would see people that you know, some of the people might have invested in gold per se would have been like, say, buying those Austrian 100 Kronas or maybe a dentist was buying the little pieces of dental stuff they used to make teeth with. I bought a number of batches of dental gold that were little casting shots that the dentist could buy because it was illegal to buy that stuff and I'd have maybe a dentist come in and he'd have 10 ounces of dental gold to sell. That was the way he invested prior to the making illegal. And then once it became legal and that's where the Cougar Am became really popular because it was the first real coin that was pronounced as a one ounce coin.
Richard Stelzer:It had an ounce of gold. The you gotta remember that the pre 33 gold that we had, the $28 gold piece is 96.75% of an ounce. So Yeah. It took somebody if you saw a spot was $300 then you had to take 300 times 96 whatever and to find out the actual gold content. Or the Cougar Rand made it simple for a lot of people who aren't good at math.
Richard Stelzer:If you looked in your newspaper and the market said it was $300 gold, you had a Cougar Rand, There's $300 of gold in that Cougar Rand. So that made it a a lot simpler, and it became very popular and stayed very popular until the Maple Leaf came out. Maple Leaf was nice again because it, you know, was a $9.09 9 fine. The first first run of the Maple Leaf were 3 nines, and then the a couple years later, they switched off to $4.09 fine Yeah. Which you see now.
Richard Stelzer:And there's a little difference between the two coins if you go to sell them on a market. Interesting. Maple Leaf Gurrens really took over the marketplace at that time.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Would you say that the public's interest in owning gold really started to take off? Because it became legal for them in 1975, did you see an immediate increase in demand from the public to buy gold
Richard Stelzer:in Yeah. The Mid 1970s when you started seeing people that I at least I felt that you started seeing people who were buying gold that weren't necessarily coin collect. Prior to that, most of the gold the people had gold. We're guys who are coin collectors and stuff of that nature, and they had the the gold coins that they collected of two and a half dollar gold pieces, $5 gold pieces, $20 gold pieces. And so but as far as bullion, just people were just buying bullion.
Richard Stelzer:They didn't really get going as a big deal until the late, you know, you know, mid to late nineteen seventies, and it really took off like a monstrosity in seventy eight, seventy nine, eighty when the market you know, the Hunt brothers tried to manipulate the silver market and in the process, drew the gold market up at the same time. And then you saw a lot more like anything out of sight, out of mind. But when the Hunt brothers started doing it and started making the news, and all of a sudden with gold and silver being covered in the news at night, all of a sudden people who had never been in it before now got into the market.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Yeah.
Richard Stelzer:So by the late 1970s, really started seeing what I consider the modern gold market from my perspective.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Gotcha. Yeah. Well, I was gonna ask you about that Hunt Brothers run up. So, I mean, those people that don't know, the Hunt Brothers were a pair of, the guys from Texas, I believe they were oil men, I think. And they decided that they were going
Richard Stelzer:to and corner the market on
Tony Gryckiewicz:they were going to try to run of silver way up. And I'm assuming then they were going to sell, then that was kind of the part of the, part of their scheme. Right. It up to you. Yeah.
Tony Gryckiewicz:So can you maybe walk us through a little bit about the history of that? What was it like specifically in the coin shop where people just coming in and trying to buy as much silver as they could? And we had all the advent of these like private refiners, right? Like mom and pop shops that would refine their own silver bars. What was the buzz in the spirit?
Tony Gryckiewicz:Well, that
Richard Stelzer:in the late seventies, yeah, late seventies, early eighties, there weren't as many private manufacturers out there as there are nowadays. You know? There were there was Engelhard, Johnson Mathew, Handy Harmon, some really big player that made, you know, one out bar, 10 out bar, 100 out bars. Engelhard made twenty five and fifty. You didn't see that much.
Richard Stelzer:Mostly, you saw the ones, tens, and hundreds. And then they were made big comics bars, a thousand ounce bars that were made also. But and then as of later on in the eighties, you start seeing more and more other private manufacturers get out there. But back at that time, most of the market was made in ones, tens, and hundreds from Inglehart, Johnson and Mathew were the two big players. From a shop perspective, I didn't have a shop full time at that time.
Richard Stelzer:I was I was started buying on the road like a lot of guys did, setting up motel rooms, advertising that we were buying gold and silver and things of that nature. And I did that originally as a coin collector looking for collector coins. Okay. But the
Tony Gryckiewicz:unplanned
Richard Stelzer:sideline for that was that all of a sudden, started to People started to learn how to buy gold and silver jewelry. And all of a sudden, people started bringing in old class rings and everything like that. And you start realizing you made more money buying that type of stuff than you did the gold coins anyway. And most of the people that were bringing stuff into us at that time on their silver coins, their cost value was face value. They got it out of change.
Richard Stelzer:Yeah. They weren't buying this stuff. And what's happened over the years since the, say, mid-70s is every time this stuff changes hands, he gets into stronger and stronger hands. Okay. I never I hardly And ever back in the seventies and made through about '85, I rarely would have anyone walk in with a bag of 90 or a quarter bag of 90 or something of that nature that they bought from a dealer through TV or something of that nature.
Richard Stelzer:Everything I the people were bringing in were in, you know, jars or cans, coffee cans, or little jars or different thing, medicine bottles that and they saved the stuff as it came out of circulation. A lot of the people selling to me at that time were people who owned businesses. And each night when they close their business up, they go through their till and they pull the silver out and Yeah. Save Mostly probably people in their late fifties, early sixties, seventies, their kids were raised. They could start saving some of that money.
Richard Stelzer:Then during the seventies and eighties, they started selling that stuff. So most of my guys were looking at the if you were offering them three times face for a half dollar, they were making a buck on it. Sure. So that that is nowadays, I see the one huge difference is that right now, the the shock in Omaha that we've got down here in Bellevue, the suburb of Omaha, I would say probably 80% of the business coming into us now is stuff that people bought as silver, not as a collectible.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. I, I mean, I have a couple of thoughts or stories about that myself. I mean, I remember stopping into a bank, my local bank, maybe just about a half a year ago or so. And I noticed that there was some silver coins inside their till, inside the banker's till. And I asked them to, if they pull, could pull out any of the silver coins from me and they of course sell them for face value.
Tony Gryckiewicz:I mean, because it's a bank, they're just coins, they're just quarters or dimes or whatever. Then they said, you know, we actually got these from an older lady who brought in a number of rolls of these older, these older coins. So I bought all of the rolls and I brought them back and, I hosted an Instagram live video where I opened them up and we looked at which ones were silver and actually about, there was two or three rolls that had mostly Kennedy halves that were pre 1965 Kennedy halves and they were nice silver. And I think I must have found 70 or 80 different Kennedy halves that way from a bank, you know, just, just in, you know, through circulation, so to speak. And that was, that was, that was great.
Tony Gryckiewicz:But at the same time, also remember ten years ago going to coin shows when I first got started into coins and buying loads and loads of mercury dimes, which is referred to as junk silver, 90% silver and buying it from a coin dealer. That was a silver investment. Then I'm sure, you know, a couple of years later when silver ran up, I ended up selling it over and making a profit and so forth. Yeah. But you can still do that today.
Tony Gryckiewicz:You can still go to a bank and you might get lucky. You might look through rolls, you might find some silver that way.
Richard Stelzer:Yeah. It you're gonna have that. I I grew up in South Dakota. I was born in Mitchell, but I grew up in Sioux Falls and had a shop in Sioux Falls. And I know when the the bank in Sioux Falls was Norwest at that time, that bank had the tellers got into a little dispute sometimes about, you know, silver coming in and one teller get it and they'd make money on them.
Richard Stelzer:So finally, the bank in Sioux Falls, they always had a situation where when silver came in, they would buy it. They put it they they actually call me at my store in Empire Mall and say, hey. We've got a customer here like this. They put the customer on and sometimes I'd say, hey, I'll pay you this for it. Tell the people, it was amazing to me how many times people, even when you told them, hey, we'll pay you more for it.
Richard Stelzer:They still deposited it. Mean, but what happened was then the bank would then buy it. And then about every six months, they call me up and whatever they received at all their branches at Sioux Falls, if they had say 500 face and 90 and it was going for say $1,300, they'd have me write them a check for $800 to the Make A Wish Foundation and 500 to the bank. And then the bank just got their money back and anything extra they got went to the Make A Wish Foundation because they had too many disputes between tellers that were putting stuff away that finally said, We're gonna end these problems. We're not gonna let anybody make any money out.
Richard Stelzer:Just donate it to church. So but you do. I mean, I have people come in. Matter of fact, we had a guy in last week that came into the store in Omaha here, and he said he had just bought a couple rolls of quarters at the bank down the street from us. And somebody must have brought in a couple of rolls of quarters, and he opened it up.
Richard Stelzer:And out of the 80 quarters into two rolls he had, I think, like, 72 of them were silver quarters.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Nice. That's a great
Richard Stelzer:He got them from there. That has happened, but not not often. You know.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Let's talk about the energy in the market right now. You know, with gold, it's around 4,300 an ounce. I think this past couple of days it hit over 4,300 and silver over 5,353 an ounce. What is the mood like right now amongst dealers and customers that are in your shop?
Richard Stelzer:Well, there's a lot there's a lot of euphoria of people going, hey, this is really great. I've been waiting for twenty years. I mean, I had a guy come in and sold me some stuff that he said it went up to the last time it went up like $47.48. And he said, I didn't sell it. And I've been waiting for thirty some years for this.
Richard Stelzer:And he finally brought it back down and sold it. One of the things that's a little kind of a curvy enthusiasm, so to speak, because people don't understand that technically there are two different markets out there. And when you have a very stable market, both markets mirror each other pretty close. You have the cash market, the physical product market, and then you have the commodities market, which is the piece of paper trading. And when the market is pretty stable, both market prices are real pretty even to each other.
Richard Stelzer:But when you start getting the markets either going up or going down very fast, all of a sudden the two change. And we're in now what's happened in the last two weeks has happened, which has happened exactly in 1982, is that the refiners were getting so much stuff coming in that the refining people are not being able to keep up. The best analogy I tell people around here is if you go by an elevator sometime, you're driving on the highway and you see a big grain elevator there and maybe there's 10 silos, the whole 10,000,000 bushels of corn. And all those 10 silos are full of corn and there's a big elevator there dumping another 5,000,000 bushels out in the pasture next to the elevator, and you show up with five more million bushels. That grain elevator guy is gonna say, I can't get any railroad cars to move this stuff out of here until next year in June or next year in April.
Richard Stelzer:And so here's what I'm gonna be buying. I'm gonna be buying it on April's future of next year or June's future or July or January, whatever it is. And so all of a sudden, price becomes hugely different than what the cash market is versus a commodity market. And the refiners can't just add capacity on the silver market here. The refiners can't just melt.
Richard Stelzer:If they were able to melt, say, a million ounces a day, they might be able to change their capacity and work a few more hours and do a million two ounces, but they they can't just build new furnaces and stuff like that overnight nor do they want to just for a instant rush. And so they have to look and say, we can only do a million ounces a day. We got 2,000,000 ounces a day coming in Pretty soon we reached a point where we don't have enough capacity to handle what we got coming in. And so all of a sudden the price changes. And one thing I've noticed that was huge in the last five months since right about tax season.
Richard Stelzer:We started prior to tax season, we were selling on our shop a lot of stuff to the public. The last five months, we have hardly been selling anything to the public. It's been mostly buying. You know? And I think a lot of shops I've talked to who had the same day, they've been buying stuff, but the public is not participating.
Richard Stelzer:Yet at the same time, the market's going up, which seems wait. How can a market go up if the public isn't buying? Well, the only reason is because the public isn't the only one that makes the market. The market is being made by sovereign wealth funds, huge big, you know, countries and stuff of that nature buying. And one of the indicative things of that was we started noticing John Jackson, a partner of mine, and I were both noticing.
Richard Stelzer:There was a time period there were thousand ounce bars were trading, you know, right at close to spot yet 10 ounce bars and 100 ounce bars were 50¢ to a dollar back a spot. That's totally going to seem like. Would a thousand miles more be higher price? Well, the reading did because the thousand miles bars are being delivered against contracts. And the refiners can take that bar and I sell it to you.
Richard Stelzer:You're the refiner and you can deliver it out tomorrow once you get
Tony Gryckiewicz:it.
Richard Stelzer:You don't have any hold time. So we started seeing that. So we started looking at myself, This market is being made by big sovereign wealth funds. And that's the difference between now and the market in 1980 is that market in 1980 was being mainly driven by a couple brothers, the hunt brothers, maybe a few people tagged onto their shirt tail, so to speak, or coattails, but they basically here, we got a market being made internationally all over the place. There's big players out there buying large quantities of silver, and they're buying it by the ton, not by the ounce.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Maybe you can help me understand this a little bit better because I think I understand the pieces, but maybe you can help piece this together. So the refiners are melting silver down and they are delivering thousand ounce bars to the COMEX, which is the commodities exchange. And that commodity exchange is delivering those to people who are purchasing a contract to get certain per per number of ounces of silver in thousand ounce bars. Did I get that right?
Richard Stelzer:That's kind of right. Yes. And and the thing is, see those thousand dollars bars. If you're a big sovereign wealth fund and you and you're directed by your fund to acquire, you know, $10,000,000 worth of silver, you're probably not gonna be going out there saying, I want I want a a six pallet out here full of all kinds of different stuff. I'll have some 90, I'll have some $40 from Sterling and all this.
Richard Stelzer:No. They don't. They want something very simple. Okay. I want a pallet that's got $200,000 bars on it.
Richard Stelzer:It's easy to keep track of, easy to inventory. And so that's exactly what's happening. So the refiners have to take the stuff, melt it, and make it into these thousand dollars bars. On COMEX, they only allow certain manufacturer or certain refiners to deliver to them.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Okay. Okay.
Richard Stelzer:And that was one thing that really happened in the '80s and has happened now a little bit. And I've told people many times in the past, a lot of people don't listen, but JCB out of Omaha, Nebraska, or whatever. Some private guy. Let's say the market goes to $70 an ounce in three weeks, and you wanna get rid of yourself, all of a sudden, the and you've got, say, 100 you got a hundred hundred ounce bars, and your 100 ounce bars are Inglehart, and those are deliverable against the contract. You're gonna get more money out of those Inglehart because they can move them the same day.
Richard Stelzer:But if you walk in with a 100 bars from XYZ refining, they may severely discount. We're talking discounts right now of $4 or someone else. You could see discounts of $20 an ounce.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Yeah.
Richard Stelzer:Because we can't do anything with it. We got too much coming in. And if you start silver, get up to $70 an ounce, you may see many different levels of what they pay. We pay this much for Ringgard. We pay this much for XYZ.
Richard Stelzer:You know, we're, you know, different products. They're gonna pay less for because they have to process and and convert it into something that's deliverable because they come if you have a if you're a outdoor investor and you sold a contract and and I bought it and I say I want delivery, You have to deliver to me in a bar that the commodity exchange recognizes.
Tony Gryckiewicz:So see what your what your opinion is on this one because I I have a pretty strong opinion on this question I've developed in the last couple a couple months, which is that people always used to ask me, should I buy American Silver Eagles or Gold Eagles? Should I buy more generic kind of silver or gold or whatever?
Richard Stelzer:They're a recognized product. Yes.
Tony Gryckiewicz:What's that?
Richard Stelzer:They're a recognized product.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yes. Yes. And so what I've grown to believe wholeheartedly is I actually think I recommended people to buy Eagles because I've noticed in this market today that there is a strong bid for silver Eagles. Silver Eagles
Richard Stelzer:are not bringing over amount.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So if somebody brings up Eagles to me to sell at a coin show, I'm very happy to buy Eagles from them because I can get a pretty strong bid for them myself when selling them and offloading Same thing with Gold Eagles. So, you know, thinking, you know, rewinding a little bit when you're making the purchase, even though you might've paid a little bit more of a premium back when silver is $20 an ounce and you paid $25 an ounce for your Eagle, You're actually having, you're able to get such a larger kind of a premium for them today when you're looking to sell them because it's a recognized product and there, and you know, there's a strong amount of demand for Eagles. What's your
Richard Stelzer:take They're more liquid on to do what happens.
Tony Gryckiewicz:What's that? A
Richard Stelzer:recognized product like an eagle becomes more liquid on a very strong upmarket. And you're exactly right. And that's why I It doesn't matter when you buy it, it's when you go to sell it. If you're selling it into a really strong up market, which is what most people are hoping to buy this and then the market jumped up really big and they wanna get rid of it, now they want a product that is easy to resell.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Yeah.
Richard Stelzer:And some of the oddball stuff isn't as easy to resell on a strong upmarket.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Recently, somebody offered me a 100 silver pandas and I just looked at what the bids were out there and those were, those were trading below melt. Those are the bids on those are below melt. I was, I was, you know, another dollar or so per ounce below that number in order to buy them and offer some liquidity to the customer at that time, you know, versus Eagles, which were a couple dollars above melt. So there's kind of a, you know, a big difference, but I know with 90%, I had a number of people at the last coin show I did at the Pan Show in Monroeville, Pennsylvania, and there were people brought up 90% and I just simply said, no, thanks. I don't have anything I can do with this 90%, these 90% dimes.
Tony Gryckiewicz:At least nothing that I could do quickly with them like I could with with the Eagles.
Richard Stelzer:The 90% is if you have enough contacts, you can sell it. But right now, there's a number of refiners. I think Elemental here in Omaha, which has got offices all over the country. Last week, they were not buying 90 or 40% period at all. You know?
Richard Stelzer:Wow. So they were buying Eagles nine 99, but they weren't buying 90. I ran into the same situation with you to the the people will take and on egos. You pay a little more going in, but you're gonna get a little bit more coming out again. So you may not be able buy as many ounces, but the ones you do buy will bring a little bit more money.
Richard Stelzer:So you yeah. You're right. I think that you're better off to buy a good recognized product. Like I say, it's the day you go to sell them. It makes a difference how liquid that thing is.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. So for the average person sitting on bullion or old coins, where do you recommend they go and what should they watch out for if they're going to liquidate and trying to sell?
Richard Stelzer:I would I normally would recommend if you're looking to sell 90 percent or even collector coins or whatever, get online, do a Google search, coin dealers near me. Some of them may come up as pawn shops, some of them may come up as jewelry stores. You I I really would try to get ahold of somebody who has been in the coin business for a few years at a location, not just somebody who's opened up a little store buying gold and silver. You know, you get these little gold and silver buyers. And if there's any collector coins in your stuff, they're probably not gonna pay you anything for that.
Richard Stelzer:I'd wanna talk to a coin dealer in your area that's been in business for a while and also maybe as a member of the American Numismatic Association. They're more of a coin shop than a bullion shop only because a lot of these bullion shops, I mean, if you know all you have is bullion, that's one thing. But if you got a collection of coin that might have some valuable stuff in it, then you definitely wanna go to a coin shop. I try to avoid and shouldn't say it this way, but I was a road buyer when I first started the bullion side of the business. But I originally went out of the road buyer looking for collector coin and turned into a bullion buyer because more stuff started coming in in the seventies that way.
Richard Stelzer:But a lot of the guys that are setting up, they're in town for two weeks or three weeks. A lot of those guys are not the strongest buyers by any means at all. And if you start looking to the reason I even got into the being a road buyer was I was looking at the ads that some road buyers had put in and I said to myself, Jesus, if I can buy coins at those prices, I can really make some money because I can buy them and flip them right here in town the same day again. So generally speaking, I try to avoid road buyers or, you know, I wanna have somebody that if I wanna see them a a week from now, I can go back to their shop. You know?
Richard Stelzer:I don't wanna you probably aren't gonna buy a car or something of that nature. Somebody who's not around or you can't go back. What do you do with it if there's something wrong with it? And so I'd wanna get ahold of somebody who's got a local brick and mortar store.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. I think that's really good advice. I think that there's always an advantage to doing some research. You know, we're doing some research around your different avenues for, for selling realize that there are, you know, online businesses. There's also coin shows.
Tony Gryckiewicz:There's also coin shops to, to step into, but there's also other options like pawn shops or these kind of like, I don't want to say fly by night, but these, these dealers that show up into an area for a short period of time, you know, there's a lot of hype and anticipation that is involved there. So you got to, you know, they're going make you an offer. You're to sell it right there. All, anything that has to do with like, you know, the offer is only available just for today. You got to do it right now is usually in my opinion, my advice would be, you know, not a good move.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Ask around and like Rick, like Richard's saying, do some research and find a reputable coin shop with a dealer that has a history and a track record of being very fair with customers and being able to kind of sort things out and give you a very fair market value for them. Richard, could you explain a little bit about what the process is like when somebody comes in, I'm bringing in a whole box of silver and I've got everything from Sterling to some 90%, some old U. S. Coins to bars or Eagles, or how do you, what does the process look like for somebody who's stepping into your coin shop and how long does it take for them to, you know, to receive an offer and a and, you know, a check or cash or like tell us a little bit about the process.
Richard Stelzer:It it's quite it it can be different depending on what you've got. I mean, I have people walk in and they have small box full of stuff and there's really nothing in there. It's all mostly a lot of it just face value. Take it to the bank and deposit it, but it's also make maybe some silver in there and stuff. And a little box, maybe the size of a a lunch pail or something of that nature, you know, or maybe a small sized priority mailbox, medium sized priority mailbox with, you know, miscellaneous stuff in there.
Richard Stelzer:A good dealer who's got a shop and he's got a mixture of stuff can probably go through that a box of that size in a half hour to an hour easily. We know what we're looking for, you know, and we can sort it. I would take a box like that and I'd sort it into pile. Here's some sterling. Here's some 40%.
Richard Stelzer:Here's 90%. Here's some collectible coins, stuff of that nature. Kind of sort them out for people. It's interesting. Sometimes people try to help you by the worst thing I think sometimes when I get a box in and literally I've got every single coin in a separate little envelope or separate little ziplock baggie.
Richard Stelzer:And it takes me forever to take every coin out of every little envelope, every little baggy. The worst one I had was years ago. Had a lady from Metro South Dakota come into my shop and she had $1,800 face, 18,000 dimes. Everyone individually wrapped in Saran wrap.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Oh wow. That would have taken a long time. So you gotta factor your, your cost labor into that offer. Yeah.
Richard Stelzer:Yeah. This, this is when silver was three times face, 30¢ apiece for dimes. Sent her back to her home and said, when she gets them all out of the Saran Wrap, I'll look at them again. About a year later, she came back and said, I don't have any friends left because I went to my church group and said, I would give them everything we got over face. And it took them two years to remove all of these because the saran wrap kinda got dried and need to chip it off.
Richard Stelzer:No fingernails left, she said. Oh, wow. Oh
Tony Gryckiewicz:my gosh. It was I I can't imagine such a thing.
Richard Stelzer:I would say one thing, please, if you really want, you mission coin shows. Coin shows are actually a really good place. If you've got a smaller collection to sell because you can take it into that show and you can literally go and have and I just visited a show this afternoon in Omaha, Nebraska. They have one on one every month. And you can come up to myself and I can look at these coins, make you an offer.
Richard Stelzer:You can leave and you can go and walk 30 feet or 50 feet and get another offer. And then walk at 30 feet and then get another offer and get your two or three competing offer and you're probably gonna find out that those offers can vary a lot you know, depending on what's going on. Sure. I I will tell you my experience with coin dealers is this. There's a lot of dealers out there that will tell you I've been in the business twenty years.
Richard Stelzer:I've been in the business thirty years, But there's also a lot of dealers that I always use the analogy. There's a lot of dealers that have 20 experience and there's other dealers who have one year's experience 20 times.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Yeah.
Richard Stelzer:Okay. There's a huge difference between those two dealers because you get a dealer that really knows what he's doing. He's gonna pay you and pay you strong for good stuff. You get some of these other guys that they're just out there seeing whether they can get it as cheap as they can, you know? Yeah.
Richard Stelzer:So, and a coin show allows you to do that in a very quick format in a one location.
Tony Gryckiewicz:So I just got back to the pan show. I had a number of people, I've got huge signs that say buying gold, silver, pink, top dollar for premium collections. And a lot of people offer me a lot of different things. I will admit that I am not the strongest buyer on Boolean because I don't primarily sell Boolean. So I'm always thinking about how do I offload this bullion that I'm going to buy across the counter today.
Tony Gryckiewicz:I'm going to, let's say I want to put out $13,000 for three Gold Eagles. How am I going to get my 13,000 back and make a little bit of a profit so it's worth my time? So I'm thinking about, well, what are my, the bids out there for me to sell it to a wholesaler or whomever? Well, there might be others in the room who deal in bullion and actually are willing to pay stronger for it. But that being said, I deal in high end numismatics, in numismatics that are all very strong.
Tony Gryckiewicz:I appeal collector coins, real collector coins, things that I know that this coin looks a lot better than most of the cat bust halves that I see in this particular year. So if somebody offers me that coin, I'm going to be one of the strongest buyers and as strongest offers in the room. And, know, what happens oftentimes in the case of the coin show is that I encourage them to go around and get other offers, come back and see me if you hear something more, you know, get stronger offer and give me an opportunity to kind of make a final offer on this thing. And pretty much each of those times I would see the person come back around thirty, forty minutes later, maybe two or two hours later or so. And I got an opportunity to buy the nice numismatic high end coin because I was that strong of a buyer on that material primarily because that is, that fits my business model.
Tony Gryckiewicz:And that's the benefit of coin shows is you do have this ability to go into, to do a little bit of leg work, so to speak, and find yourself a strong offer on whatever it is that you have to sell. That's just basically how it works.
Richard Stelzer:No, you're making a very good point. And that's one other good reason sometimes to go to a coin show is because, yeah, the coin show, you can look out and see your display cases. What's in your display cases? You got a guy over here who's got just foreign coins in his play case. You got another guy over here who's got US coins and collector coin.
Richard Stelzer:You go to another dealer and he's mainly got bullion. He doesn't have much as far as collecting money, mainly bullion. And then you got another guy over here who's got US paper money. Well, you know what? You probably don't wanna go to the guy with US paper money with that bullion.
Richard Stelzer:That's not what he's selling. You know? You don't wanna go to the guy with the foreign coins and with your US paper money or your bullion. But you wanna take and so you might take your collection and go to and see it here. One dealer doing a little bit of everything.
Richard Stelzer:Another dealer is doing, you know, specifically market. I I I always felt one of the advantages I had in the industry over the years was that because I grew up in a small market in South Dakota. As a coin dealer, you have to do a little bit of everything in South Dakota in a small shop to make a living. You can't just do coins. You can't just do paper.
Richard Stelzer:You can't just do you know, I did coin. I did paper money. I did US paper money, foreign paper money, foreign coin. I bought X-ray films from the hospitals.
Tony Gryckiewicz:You guys buy stamps, right? You guys also buy
Richard Stelzer:I do stamps. Yeah. Did marbles. My guy in Sioux Falls, we bought and sold marbles. So we bought a little bit of everything because when it walks in the door, you have to be able to buy.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Don't bring your marbles to me, folks. Bring them out to Richer out in Omaha. Don't bring your marbles to me. I will buy marbles.
Tony Gryckiewicz:But, anyways, go ahead. Sorry.
Richard Stelzer:I I need a good for you because I could buy a lot of stuff. No. And so some of you walks in with just a mixture of stuff. I can buy that type of stuff. But if you walk into a shop and and all the guy has is paper money out in front of him or all he has is foreign coins, you probably don't wanna bring your United States bullion or your foreign paper money to the guy or vice versa.
Richard Stelzer:You don't wanna take your paper, US paper money. I've I have had a very good luck over the years going to coin shops and buying paper money collections that they bought for virtually nothing from people because it was foreign paper and then there was nothing about it. And the next thing you know, you bought a $5,000 note and you end up paying them $3,000 for it, but they bought it for $3.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah.
Richard Stelzer:Because they didn't even know what they were buying. Wasn't that they intentionally ripped the guy off. They just didn't know anything about it. So they just said, Oh, I'll give you $5 for it. And you wanna try to find by at a coin show, you have the advantage.
Richard Stelzer:You look and see what you're selling, you know?
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. People ask me all the time about how to make money at coin shows and, and I always encourage them to learn a niche, learn, learn a particular area and to go into coin shows and ask everybody if they have something from that particular niche, because the knowledge is what will allow them to make some money on the purchases. There's so many things that like you just stated, I mean, I personally don't carry any world paper.
Tony Gryckiewicz:If somebody came across my table and says, you know, I just want to sell all of this, this, this album of world paper, I'll probably buy it. I'll make some kind of an offer. They might just accept it. Might have this then. And I don't really know what's in there, me personally, because I'm not a specialist in this.
Tony Gryckiewicz:So if somebody comes along and says, Hey, can I look through your world paper? I'm just going to be looking at them and saying, okay, I paid $2 for this note, or I paid, you know, $50 for this note. Sure. You want it for a 100, take it for a 100. And they're going to take it back.
Tony Gryckiewicz:They're going to do all the research or they know all of it. And they're going to make maybe hundreds or they're going to make thousands because of that knowledge. So if you're listening out there and you want to get into this hobby or you want to get into using this hobby as a way of making money, learn a particular area and go to coin shops and go to coin shows and start looking for those things that are in that niche. There's always riches in the niches that, you know, as they say. So I just want to ask you two really direct questions.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Is in your opinion, people sell their silver and gold right now? So we got all time highest prices in your opinion. Is this a time that they that they should be selling? I
Richard Stelzer:think, you know, that's kind of a hard question to have a real answer for everyone because it depends on why, what, how you have it, how you got it, what what your purposes are. Obviously, if you're somebody who is 85 years old, you know, and you have you've drained most of your retirement funds out. Maybe you've started to retire twenty years ago and you had a $200,000 or $300,000 available to you and you're now down to the last $20,000 in your retirement account and you're getting Social Security check of $151,800 a month. Yes, it would be nice if you had $20,000 worth of coins right now to sell it and get that 20. And it'd be even nicer to be able to have it to get 40 if you held on and it went up.
Richard Stelzer:But at the same time, it's 20 now and it was 10 a year ago. You may wanna say, you know what? At this stage of my life, I probably want to sell that and use it because I'm gonna use it to live on. Truly I believe right now the way the market is the way I'm seeing it is. I I think you you know, again, I am not a licensed investment adviser or anything, but my feeling is I think the market still has some room to go out.
Richard Stelzer:How much more? I'm sure you've all heard the bears, the bulls, and the pigs. The only ones that get slaughtered are the pigs because all of a sudden they wait and it actually gets up to $70 let's say an ounce on silver and they don't sell it. And then when it does crash, it doesn't when a crash happens, it doesn't go from 70 to 68 to 67 to 66 to 65. It probably will go from 70 back to 45 or something of that nature in a matter of a week and a half and you've missed the boat.
Richard Stelzer:Sure. And so sometimes it's better to Or if you got a little bit, maybe you got a thousand ounces, you can sell you know, a couple of 100 ounces now and a couple 100 in another month from now. If you need the money, then I would say yes. You probably wanna look at trying to dispose of it because I I have no idea where it's gonna go. I I do believe long term, it's gonna be up for at least another couple months or a year possibly, but I don't short term, it could we could see it open tomorrow at $53 in silver and maybe work its way up to 60 by the end of the say year.
Richard Stelzer:But then all of a sudden by April, it could be right back down to 45 again. Yeah. So you it's hard to know for sure. So it depends on where you're at on on stuff. I if you're if you've inherited stuff and you're you know more how to you know, how you have a better luck on the stock market because you understand it because you spend a lifetime studying stock, then you know what?
Richard Stelzer:Yep. Put money into something you know.
Tony Gryckiewicz:There you go. Invest in what you know. I always tell other people. Yeah. Yeah.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Yeah. So
Richard Stelzer:I even really got the stock market to a 40 some thousand dollars.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Well, I mean, this gets to the other question, which is should people be buying? I mean, should they be buying silver and gold? You know, right now, in in your opinion, what do you what do you what do you think when somebody asks you your opinion on that?
Richard Stelzer:Well, my daughter asked me that exact question. I've got a daughter who's, like, 43 years old now or 42 years old. And she asked me the other day because she had a $4,050,000 dollars in her savings account. She thought about maybe she should buy some, you know, because she started watching like everyone. She says, oh, dad, should I buy some of this stuff?
Richard Stelzer:And over the years, I've given her and her sister both a lot of coins and stuff as I bought stuff. And so she has a much higher portion of her total net worth in coins than the average person would. And I basically said to her, I said, well, quite honestly, as much as I'd like to say, yeah, you should probably go out and buy it. You already have a fairly high proportion of your savings in some type of precious metals, gold, silver, or platinum. I don't know if I would recommend at this stage.
Richard Stelzer:And so, yes, it might go to 70, but it also might go back to 40. And so there's a lot higher yes. Risk reward. There's a much higher risk right now. You might get this good reward, but there's also that much bigger risk right now because it has literally doubled.
Richard Stelzer:And it's kind of the thing that's happened to me in the last week and a half, actually last two weeks, maybe at the moment, I'm starting to see a little more people coming in. We're talking about maybe I should buy gold and silver. People that wouldn't buy from me when a 100 ounce bar was $2,000 are now thinking maybe I should buy one now that it's 4,500.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Yeah. There's a fear Yeah. Of missing There's a fear of missing out. But anyways, you know, it's, it's, that's human nature.
Tony Gryckiewicz:And I was going to ask you just, you know, over six decades, you've seen this kind of up and down, up and down the hunt brothers and other booms and busts and periods of lulls. What have you learned about human nature when it comes to, you know, the gold and silver?
Richard Stelzer:Well, I think what I say, one thing I have learned, I said, is number one, don't buy into the upper market sometimes. Or if you do buy it, be selective on what you're buying. If you're buying stuff, buy a name brand product because when it when markets get really high and you do decide to sell on a hub market, you want something that you can resell, whether it's Silver Eagles or some name brand product as a deliverable. Right now, if I was gonna invest right now, even like with my daughter, and I'm sure you've run into this, there's a lot of coins right now that used to carry a really nice collector premium that literally has disappeared. As the market's gone higher, the amount of, you know, $20 there were a number of $20 gold pieces that when gold was $1,800, it was an MS 65, and it was trading for 2,800.
Richard Stelzer:Now the market's gone from 1,800 to 4,200, and the premium over, which used to be $1,000 is now 100.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah.
Richard Stelzer:Okay?
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah.
Richard Stelzer:And so if I was going to be buying coins right now, I'd be very selective in trying to buy stuff. I just sold one the other day, ultra high relief, 2,009 ultra high relief proof coin, the $5.41 they made. Now, back when gold was around $1,800, those things were trading for 2,500, $2,600. Okay? Now I just sold one at a show the other day for literally $50 over the mail value.
Richard Stelzer:Now if I was, if my daughter would have told me prior to selling that coin, she wanted to put some money in gold, I'd say, okay. If you wanna put some money in gold and you wanna buy an ounce of gold, I'll sell you that one there for 4,000, you know, $42.50. Because even if the market drops, drop back down to 3, then the premium's probably gonna come back a little bit. You aren't gonna hopefully, some of that collector premium will come back if we had a bigger drop. You know?
Richard Stelzer:Mhmm. You wanna because you we we all know that eventually once the thing settles out and whether the gold settles out a year from now at 4,000 and that becomes a new norm, then eventually the collector premium will start getting back up again. And so I would be looking at things that had a collector premium that has totally disappeared in the in the last year and try to find buy those coins.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah. Somebody I wanna mention again about that that whole concept with the premiums and the rare coins is just yeah. If today, if you have $4,000 and you want to buy a, an old U.
Tony Gryckiewicz:S. Gold coin, an old U. S. Dollars Twenty coin, and you can choose between something as relatively common, let's say $19.20 St. Gaudens, you know, an MS65 or MS64 or whatever.
Tony Gryckiewicz:And you can compare that to a Carson City 20 in a low grade. That's a rare coin for the same price today. I mean, it's a no brainer.
Richard Stelzer:I would buy the $20 Carson City all damn long.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Of course. Yeah.
Richard Stelzer:And if dealers are smart, they're not going to sell those.
Tony Gryckiewicz:So after all of these years, so my last question for you is this. So finally, what keeps you passionate about this coin and bullion business after all of these years? Sixty years is a long time to be in any market, fifty plus years as a coin dealer. That's longer than most people's careers in just any, almost any line of work. What keeps you passionate about this business?
Tony Gryckiewicz:Keeps you going?
Richard Stelzer:Well, first of I started as a collector and so was a hobby. It is a hobby that turned into a job or shouldn't say never did turn into a job because I've always I I've told my daughters many times and many other people, what I like about this business, I've never felt like I worked a day in my life. I'm 78 years old. I'm now down to working maybe fifty hours a week. Because I like what I do.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Yeah.
Richard Stelzer:And I work today at a coin show. Next week, we'll open a shop at nine in the morning. I close it at six at night. I'll be at a coin show in Ames, Iowa next weekend on Saturday and Sunday. So I'll work seven days.
Richard Stelzer:Actually, of the last twenty one days, I've worked twenty, but I don't think it's worth. I like the people I meet. I like what I do. It's a hobby that, like I say, that turned into a profession. One of the things is whether it's even if I I did not necessarily get it for free, but one thing nice about the hobby is that every day is like Christmas.
Richard Stelzer:You never know what's gonna walk into your store. And it may even if it's something that I buy that I don't really even get I don't even get to buy it, but somebody shows it to me because it's really cool. It's really neat. It's kind of fun to get yours. There's many different things like that over the years that I've, you know, I had a note that I bought in Memphis, Tennessee a number of years back from the Deseret National Bank in Salt Lake City, Utah from 1872, Utah territory at that time.
Richard Stelzer:And the signers at that time, the old national currency, they were hand signed. The president of the Desert National Bank in Salt Lake City, Utah, at that time was Brigham Young. That note was hand signed by Brigham Young. It's just cool to say, hey, I got this note that was signed by Brigham Young. A few years after that, traded a note in from a guy in Memphis at the paper money show, and I ended up getting a sheet of $5 bills from the Dunbar National Bank in New York.
Richard Stelzer:And it was just kinda cool because here's a sheet of nineteen o two Dunbar National Bank. The guy had the sheet, and he offered it to me at the Memphis show. And I I thought, I know the perfect person for this note, this sheet. And Kevin Costner at the time had just had made the movie dances with wolves, and his brother and him had a casino up in Deadwood called the midnight Star, I think it's called the time. And I thought and they're they were in the process of gonna be building a new casino in Deadwood called the Dunbar.
Richard Stelzer:And I thought this would be a proving sheet to hang in the Dunbar. Because I knew at the other place he had different things from his movie. Yeah. And his character's name and the movie dancers as well as was John Dunbar. And I thought, oh, I called Kevin Cosner's brother up out in Deadwood, South Dakota, and he managed that casino and told him about it.
Richard Stelzer:This would be for the computer if I could. I sent him a Xerox copy of the sheet. And then about two weeks later, Kevin Cosner called me on the phone and said, wanna know if I still had their sheet? And I said, yeah. And he said, well, where do I send the check?
Richard Stelzer:You know? This is kinda cool. You know? You never know where you know, when it leaves. It's kinda cool to you know?
Richard Stelzer:So it's alright. It's those little things that you get to do that sometimes are just really neat. I have a a note that I, got in by accident just doing a bunch of stuff from the the Gale National Bank in Canton, Dakota Territory. And it was written out to a Bill Hickok. William Hickok, I'm fan of it.
Richard Stelzer:And it was endorsed in the back by William Hickok in Deadwood DT. Well, it turns out I am assuming it is Wild Bill Hickok.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Yeah. He's sick
Richard Stelzer:of something like that. That's just kinda neat to have. You know?
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. It's super neat to
Richard Stelzer:have. Never never know what you're gonna get next. You know?
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. I'm always reminded of that line. I mean, I grew up watching that show on, on the history channel. You know, and I, and, I'll just, I guess I mentioned, you know, the Pawn Stars and I used to watch just episode after episode after episode. And it was like, even though I was going through grad school at the time, my dream inside was to own a shop with my old man and my son, Big Hoss.
Tony Gryckiewicz:And we would see whatever would come into the door, you know, anyways, you never know what's gonna walk through the door. But anyways, hey, know what
Richard Stelzer:I mean? That's day. Every day is like Christmas. You never know Yeah. What's gonna open.
Richard Stelzer:Yeah. Somebody walks in with a little box full of stuff and might be one of the biggest collections you've ever seen. You know, I've I've had I've had some really nice collections of people and sometimes it's really great to get that and handle it for them. Other times you get stuff that is like, I've had collections that were, you know, like I say, I tell people here's one bit of advice I'll give anybody in this business. If you are buying stuff off of TV or magazines and they tell you it's rare, You know, you just have to ask yourself a couple questions.
Richard Stelzer:Number one, TV and magazines are normally mass market vehicles. Takes a you have to sell a lot of something to pay for that ad or to pay for that TV time. And so if you look up the term, you know, mass marketing, it means you got a lot. If you look up the term rare, it means you don't have a lot of something. So conversely, it's very hard to sell something that's truly rare on TV and we limit it five per customer.
Richard Stelzer:Well, they do that to make it look like it's rare. It isn't rare. It's a mass market vehicle. And so I try to tell people to stay away from that type of vehicle because you're buying hype. The more the law the more things they give you about it, the more story behind it is, the less collectible the item is.
Richard Stelzer:They're showing you the story, not the item.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. If you're watching out there and you and you weren't you wanna get into coins, gold, silver, red coins, go visit Richard out in Omaha or come out to a coin show and visit me. You know, we'll kind of steer you in the right direction. Definitely do not watch television and buy something rare from the television, please, please. I see those channels and I kind of cringe and I see the stuff that's being sold and the prices that they're being sold for.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Just makes me cringe. But where's your shop located again and where what's the next coin show you guys are gonna be doing?
Richard Stelzer:Well, next coin show is the Iowa State Show in Ames, Iowa. Okay. The shop I have is is J and J Coin in Bellevue, Nebraska. Bellevue is a suburb or a small town right next to Omaha on the South Side Of Omaha. Omaha has always been a good coin town.
Richard Stelzer:Audrey Beebe had a a dealer here. Audrey dealer Beebe was a big collector dealer that operated out of Omaha, and Byron Reed had a big collection that he donated to the city of Omaha. They've had it on display for over a hundred years. And so Omaha's always been a really good town for that.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Will you guys be at the fun show in Florida?
Richard Stelzer:I'll be at the fun show. I'll be sharing a table with my partner, John Jackson. Yes. John Jackson has J and J coin in Sioux City, Iowa.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Alright. Well, that will be a great time for me to get a chance to meet you for sure. And then for anyone else out there that's interested in meeting either one of us come out to the fun show in Orlando, Florida the first week or the January. I'll put the dates up here on the screen. Well, anyways, Richard, thank you so much for doing this.
Tony Gryckiewicz:This has been a wonderful conversation. It's been great to get all of your experience and knowledge and advice about what to do in these kinds of turbulent markets that we are today. And hopefully we get a chance to have you back again to talk about paper money and being a co founder of PMG. I mean, I'm sure you have so much you could tell us about paper money.
Richard Stelzer:We've got a lot of yeah, there's a lot of stories of paper money. Co founded helped co found PMG with Glenn Geordie. Enjoyed it very much. Worked there for twenty some years and met a lot of people and got to handle some of the biggest pieces of paper money in The United States has ever had. So it was a very great experience that I will always treasure.
Richard Stelzer:And like I said, if anyone ever needs to get ahold of them, you can check J and J Coin Omaha, and we buy and we sell US coins, paper money, US obsolete stuff of that nature, foreign coins and paper money, both. We do we do shows all over. We'll do them in Hong Kong. I've done shows in Berlin. I've done shows
Tony Gryckiewicz:Oh, wow.
Richard Stelzer:Pretty much all over the world too. Wow. And actually gonna be going next month to a show in Bangkok, Thailand, and Matthew and Brotherton will be going to the show in Macau and Hong Kong for us in another couple weeks. Another Manrong Lee who works with us will be going to the show in Singapore, I think, in next year and some international So we do a Awesome. Little bit of
Tony Gryckiewicz:All right, Richard. Thank you so much. Have yourself a wonderful evening and see you again on the Cabbage Coins podcast. Take care. Thank you.
Richard Stelzer:Okay. Thank you very much.
