Ep.18 - COINS FROM THE CRYPT w/Noah from Rarity7 #coincollecting #numismatics #rarecoins
Wanna keep a recording, and I'm going to, I'm gonna step away, I've got a little surprise for you. Okay?
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:So Oh, like that. Oh, yeah. Hold on. I gotta go get my cat ears. Hold on.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:If we're gonna do costumes, Tony, Hold on. Happy Halloween.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Happy Halloween. Alright. Do I need to explain my costume or you get it?
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:Your meat, steak, I don't know.
Tony Gryckiewicz:You're close. You're close.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:You're
Tony Gryckiewicz:I'm Gabagool. Gab just
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:remember the Sopranos? Gabagool? I know what Gabagool is. I love you, man. That's great.
Tony Gryckiewicz:For those who don't know, I've dressed up as an Italian sandwich meat, cured meat, also known as Capacola, which is also pronounced Gabagool. And I am a ghost of Capacola meat, so I'm Gabagool.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:So man. When I think of good Halloween costumes for you, I think of lunch meat.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. I mean, I saw this, and this was the last one on the rack, by the way. Like, I'm the last person in Lancaster County that is going to get the dress up as Gabagool for Halloween. So
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:flying off the shelves, Tony. Although, you know, that does lead you to question, was it the only one on the rack?
Tony Gryckiewicz:I think they invested pretty heavily in the Gabagool costume, and I think I got the last one. So folks, welcome to the Cabbage Coins podcast, the Halloween special, also known as Coins from the Crypt. I am your host, Tony Grekevich, the owner of Cabbage Coins, and my guest today is none other than Noah Lehmann Halt. Noah is the owner of Rarity seven Coins and Currency. Noah, welcome back to the Cabbage Coins podcast.
Tony Gryckiewicz:You are a cat. You know, I felt it was a very appropriate Halloween costume. My one and three quarter year old daughter is loves cats, and so the whole family did cats this year. So That is Here we that is that is wonderful. That is that is very nice.
Tony Gryckiewicz:So we are going to be talking about the horror stories of Numismatics. We are going to do a bit of a scary coin theme here. I got this idea a couple of weeks ago, I was visiting a friend of mine up in the Northeast and somebody that I've transacted with in the last couple of years, a few times and some very nice coins and he's got a great taste and beautiful coins. And he showed me some coins that he picked up years ago, probably about four years ago, I think right around the pandemic period. And he bought them from an online auction and all four of these coins were purchased in an auction in a kind of a raw scenario.
Tony Gryckiewicz:And so he said, you know, is there any value in trying to get these actually graded by the grading company? I looked at these and I saw immediately, I'm like, Ugh, we got some problems here. We got some issues here. But I said, you know, some of these are actually kind of rare coins, so why don't we send them into PCGS, which is one of the grading services, which is considered to be the standard for numismatics and, you know, in coin collecting. And we'll find out exactly what these are and what exactly the issues are and so forth.
Tony Gryckiewicz:And I think that would be a good jumping off point for us to be able to, you know, sell them or to do something with them or figure out kind of what our next steps would be. So I've got some before and after pictures and I thought this would be just a fantastic learning opportunity for people out there. While I further ado, I'm going to show you the first example. Have you seen these yet, by the way?
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:I have not. I'm coming into this totally cold, and you're actually reminding me, you're gonna, I'm gonna share with you a few coins that I purchased from an online auction when I first got into this. As as I was taught, nothing's scarier than buying raw coins on the Internet, so we're gonna learn we're gonna all learn a little bit.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Perfect. Perfect.
Tony Gryckiewicz:So let me go ahead and share. Okay. So here's our first one here. We have a $17.96 dollars and immediately, I mean, when I first looked at this coin, well, first off, know $17.96 is a pretty rare date, but I immediately saw that while we have all this kind of speckled, modeled, really kind of odd, really strange toning that's on the coin. And this is a coin mind you that was described in this online auction as being choice AU.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Now granted, know, AU stands for about uncirculated, choice AU is not an actual grade, it's kind of just, it's supposed to describe it's being a good AU or maybe somewhere close to an AU 55 or whatever. This is what the coin looked like as a raw specimen. As you can see, obviously we got weird lines over here. We just had this really weird toning that to me immediately set off alarm bells saying that this has been kind of retoned or there's been some funny stuff going on here to try to hide something. So we sent this one into PCGS grading.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Actually, here's the reverse side before we get to the grade here. Here's the reverse side, does not look pretty whatsoever. Anyways, we get it back and we have an XF detail repaired. So XF detail basically meaning that this is within the extra fine kind of grade range in terms of the level of the detail that's on the coin, but there are some issues with the coin that is going to prevent it from being able to be graded. So what is the issue in that is the repair.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Now, we were able to look at this really closely under some light and figured out what the issue was. The issue is that the repair job probably is there was some graffiti that probably was put onto this coin many, many years ago. Graffiti is where there's intentional damage put into a coin to kind of make a drawing or something kind of intentional scratches on the coin. Typically, sometimes when somebody would put like their initials on a coin for whatever reason is like a keepsake. Then what somebody did is they kinda scratched out all of that graffiti.
Tony Gryckiewicz:They kinda scratched it all out over to kinda like erase it, so to speak, with further damage and then likely took a blowtorch to the coin in order to smooth it out or to kind of melt the metal again and try to create as smooth of a surface as possible. And in order to cover up all of that, you do some kind of strange kind of a funky toning job on the coins. So what do you think it
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:does, man? What's particularly interesting about this, and I'll I'll share, in fact, two coins that I part purchased when I was less knowledgeable about the hobby and industry, is that both of my coins have a very similar look to them, so it wouldn't surprise me if they came from the same ultimate source. You know, I immediately recognize that that strange, texture pattern on the coin. It almost looks like a liquid was sprayed onto the coin. Look under the chin in particular.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:This is what I think is was the giveaway, and I'll show you a coin that has almost the exact same. It almost looks like a liquid was sprayed on the coin. And then, you know, a liquid on metal, if it's a water based substance and it's not, you know, viscous oil based substance is gonna bead up almost immediately. So it looks like whatever liquid was sprayed on the coin, you know, beaded up, and those are the little bead marks that you have on there in order to give an effect of toning. There's sort of no natural process that would create toning that looked like that.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:I mean, that is that is some form of moisture that landed on the coin, and very clearly artificially done to, you know, change the color and and fool a novice collector or nemesis.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. What do you think drives collectors to roll the dice and raw coins online, especially sites that have no guarantee or vetting at all for people that are selling?
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:Oh, this is a very, very clear answer, and I'm I'm really actually happy that we're talking about this because I was that collector when I first started. I am not ashamed to admit this. When I first got into this, when I say first, you know, when I was a kid, I was in the coin world for many years, I kind of got back into it as an adult. And when I kind of started dipping my toes back into this as an adult, and I didn't know anything about the current marketplace and the state, you know, I I I kind of tend to assume the best out of everyone. So you see this coin, and you see a coin that, you know, either is photographed in an unfair way or, you know, hiding or photoshopped or otherwise edited.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:And you see a grade and you see, okay, choice AU. And, you know, I know that I don't know the specific variety of that $17.96, but I know that an AU $17.96 dollar is at least $12,000.
Tony Gryckiewicz:You know,
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:I had an AU $50.17 $96 recently that was, you know, straight graded AU. So here you have a 12 to, you know, 20 or more thousand dollar coin, and I bet you it was for sale on this on a website or an auction for a fraction of that. So you're you think it's not a major auction site. You're looking at maybe one of these third party estate sale type places. And, you know, you're new to the hobby and you think you've stepped into this.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:And this is exactly what I thought. And so I can share exactly what was going on in my head. You think, oh, well, I have found something that the the rest of the industry doesn't really know about and hasn't found. And you step into this and you say, maybe I'm the only one here. Maybe, you know, maybe I'm the only one who knows something about coins who's in this auction.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:And you see this this $12,000 coin, and it's bidding for $56,007 thousand dollars, 8,000. And you're like, I'm gonna get the deal of a century.
Tony Gryckiewicz:I'm gonna
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:get this AU coin, choice AU. I'm gonna get it graded, and I'm gonna sell it for $15.20, $25,000. So that is the psychology. And, I think a lot of people who aren't new aren't into this and don't know the dynamics of the industry, don't assume that there are folks out there who are doing this specifically to catch you in thinking that, you know, you are the special one to get this deal and no one else is gonna no one else is privy to this deal. And all you gotta do is get it graded and then boom, profit.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:That's what's gonna happen. So I just think it's lack of experience plus a little bit of greed is what gets you there.
Tony Gryckiewicz:I think you summarized that very nicely. And that is the draw, I would say. Here's another great example. So this is another one, I apologize for these, these, these, I'm not a hand model. I apologize for the close ups here of my fingers, but this is another example.
Tony Gryckiewicz:This is another one that came, from the same auction. This was also described as a choice AU coin. This is a $19.16 quarter. So for those who don't know, the nineteen sixteen quarter is the key date of the standing Liberty quarter series. These are pretty expensive coins.
Tony Gryckiewicz:The average coin and about, you know, XF about, you know, so is going to be about a $8,000 coin or so. You know, they get up there, especially in AU, a choice AU coin of this is going to be well into the teens in terms of the price tag of that coin. If you look around here, you can definitely see that there are some issues that are jumping out right away, aside from my cuticles over there. But anyways, there are some issues on the date that you can see cutting into the date right there. The reverse actually doesn't look too bad at all.
Tony Gryckiewicz:I mean, there's a clear, there's a cleaning of some sort right there. There's some hairlines, but overall not too bad in the reverse. And this wound up as being another damage problem. This is an XF detail, so extra fine details on the the coin, but damage from a wrap machine. And for those who don't know, and this was news to me as well, I learned a little bit about what a wrap machine is and what kind of damage it can cause.
Tony Gryckiewicz:So when coins were rolled at banks back, you know, I guess back in the day when banks would create rolls of coins, there was a machine that would actually kind of spin the edges of the roll to kind of seal it. And there was a machine that did this. If the machine setting was a slightly not aligned perfectly, we're kind of a slightly too tight, it would actually spin and cut into the coin. That's exactly what we're seeing on this. It's actually, it's hard to see in this particular image.
Tony Gryckiewicz:It was actually much easier to see a second ago in this image. You can kind of see these, these cut marks right down there. Overall, it's still a coin that I think that somebody would, would love to still own this coin, but it's not a choice AU example of a $19.16 quarter at all. This is for one, it is the level of detail on the coin is more like an XF coin. And we have this damage here, which is actually ever so slight.
Tony Gryckiewicz:And I hate to say it, but you can tell me what you think, but I mean, there is some possibility here that maybe this damage had been known or seen or had been in a holder before as being damaged and possibly cracked out of that holder and tried to sell it again as a raw coin. I think that's a unfortunate possibility with something like this because the damage is, you know, is so slight. I mean, do you think there's ever a time when buying raw online is worth the risk? If so, you know, what safeguards or instincts should a buyer rely on?
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:Well, here's the thing. I mean, with both of the two coins that you have shown, I think it's worth noting that they're not worthless. You know, this I just looked up while you were describing the coin. A $19.16 standing liberty quarter in XF details, it's still up somewhere between 5 and $6,000 coin. This is not, you know, a fake coin or a or a replica or a copy.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:And I think that, you know, you you should remember in the same with that $17.96 dollar that you showed. I mean, that's still a valuable coin, many thousands of dollars. So I think the the key, however, is that this is not a choice AU, and this is not a straight grade. I'm just gonna look up real quick and see that, you know, a 1916 staying Liberty recorded gray sheet in x f 40 would be 8,800, And certainly gray sheet in what would be considered a choice AU would be AU 55 or better. You're looking at 10,511 thousand 700 in, you know, AU 58.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:So I think the thing is with this coin is it's not an $8.10, $1,112,000 dollar coin. It is a $5,000 coin. And so I think it's worth understanding, like with any raw coin, there is a very vibrant and active market in details coins, and there's nothing wrong with them. You know, I think one thing to remember is if you're building a Standing Liberty Quarter set in a traditional Dansko album with raw coins, and there's no reason that you need to have a perfect XF or AU or mint state coin to fill that last part of your album. This is a perfectly acceptable coin to put in your album and, you know, and cap off your standing liberty quarter set or your typeset.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:You know, you might want to consider, you know, putting this as a fun entry as your standing liberty quarter in a typeset. I think the key is just understanding that it's important to learn how to educate yourself on how to grade as best as you can through pictures and recognize that this is a 5 or $6,000 coin, not an $8.10 or $12,000 coin. Just make sure that you're paying the appropriate amount of money. So I think it's just worth keeping that in mind that this same thing holds true with any coin that you're going to buy raw online. Learning to grade and learning how to estimate grade through pictures, it's very difficult, especially when the, you know, pictures are in a studio environment and the coin is ungraded and the lighting is gonna be favorable for the seller.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:But recognize the fact that, you know, there is a value. There is a market for coins like this. You just have to make sure that you're paying the right amount. And so I would certainly if your friend bought this as a choice AU and paid $10,000, you know, your friend's gonna be very disappointed to find out that you would probably pay something, you know, around $5,000 for a coin like this. That's not a huge that's not a huge win by any stretch of the imagination, but it's not a $0 coin.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:I think that's the thing that's worth that's worth pointing out.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Yeah. I think it's fair. One strategy, if you do know how to grade coins, you're in a scenario like this and you look at the coins with the pictures and you recognize that this coin, okay, it's got about the detail approximately of an XF coin, but given the fact that it's a key date, it's not in a holder, there's a good chance that there's something that's that I can't see. There's something there's some issues with the coin.
Tony Gryckiewicz:There's a good chance of that. So if you look at price guides and you come down to a VF and you see what the gray sheet prices of VF and you're in this bidding scenario and the price of the coin is still even below, you know, VF, you know, maybe there's a reason here to roll the dice, so to speak, and to get a good key date coin at a pretty fair price and to get a good value. But that comes from, you know, being able to grade coins and yeah, a little bit of, I guess, maybe a little bit of luck being in that particular auction in that time and wanting to take the risk, I guess, so to speak, but it's not how things actually pan out in this scenario. I want to show this next one here. This is one that I was pretty stoked to see because I, you know, I was like, well, first off, I want to make sure this thing was real.
Tony Gryckiewicz:This was a Pikes Peak Clark Gruber $5 from 1861. And everything about the coin to me says it was real. I looked at a lot of pictures of known real ones from the PCGS website and I said, yeah, this is a real specimen. But unfortunately I knew that this coin had just had pretty severe kind of cleaning to it and so forth. But I said, you know, we definitely should get this thing graded, given the rise in gold prices, you know, maybe there's a chance here to actually break even or do okay.
Tony Gryckiewicz:And the thing came out as being harshly clean. This is, by the way, this was again described as being choice AU. This is another choice AU description, at least in that online marketplace there. But it came back as XF detail and harshly cleaned. But I got to say, I actually like this coin because these are tough coins to own.
Tony Gryckiewicz:I mean, they're really rare and to get access to one of these, you're going to pay, you know, considerable amount of money, maybe close to about $10,000 or so to get in, to get a straight graded example. And this is one that is it a details grade, XF details, but overall doesn't have a horrible look, but this is kind of another good example here. This, in this case, have this harshly clean. There's a lot of coins that are, have very light cleanings that are in straight graded holders because of, you know, if you want to talk about, what's your philosophy on that one? You know, just kind of switch gears a little bit, you know, about grading companies, even PCGS or NGC, there's a number of coins today that are lightly cleaned that are in straight graded holders.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Can you explain it a little bit to the audience or why that is? I mean, does this still present kind of a landmine or kind of a dangerous situation or risky situation for collectors today given given that reality?
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:Yep. We we could have a whole conversation, for an hour about the dynamics of this. There's a lot to get into, but I'll give you as as best a summary as I can. So the major grading companies, and by that, I mean, PCGS and GC, and I'm not including CAC grading on this because I think CAC is a, both CAC stickering and CAC grading are differ in this. Both the major grading companies, PCGS and NGC, have taken, what we call market grading and market acceptability as a major, you know, pillar of the way that they grade coins.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:And and they are responding to the way the market has responded. And so cleaning like anything is a spectrum. There is this coin would be on the extreme end of the spectrum, and, you know, it's very rare actually to see PCGS note harshly cleaned on the holder. That that means it's particularly bad. Most of the time, they just say clean.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:Now, if you think of this as a spectrum, harshly cleaned is at one end of the spectrum of being very harshly cleaned. Cleaned can be everything from a light cleaning to a pretty harsh cleaning. You know, there's not just one definition of cleaned. And then a straight grade can also include a light cleaning and that would be considered a market acceptable level of wipe. The reason is, you know, the market has said that there are certain issues and there are certain types of coins, a lot of which have been cleaned.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:And the reality is that they're not they they decided that they do not want to body bag, which is the old term for what used to happen when a coin was was there was details graded because they would actually give you the coin back in what was a separate holder that was not, you know, the plastic holder. It's called a body They've decided that certain coins are had a perhaps a light wipe or an old cleaning that since toned over that is not so bad as to be designated cleaned. It is what they consider market acceptable cleaning. The market basically says, you know what, we're all right. Maybe we net the grade, maybe in calling, instead of calling it an AU53, we're gonna call it an AU 50.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:Maybe it has the detail level of an AU 53 or an AU 55, but because of an old wipe, we're gonna net it down to AU 50. Same thing with an XF. You'll often seen a coin you often see a coin that has detail of an XF 45 or even an AU 50 that they'll net down to an XF 40 by adjusting the grade a little bit. They don't wanna have to call it cleaned and keep it off the market as a straight graded coin. It's a dynamic of the market that's that's taken hold, and that is the reality that we're in, and PCGS and NGC respond to that.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:CAC has a very different opinion for that. John Albany is at CAC Stickering. Part of the reason that he created CAC Stickering was to combat this notion of both gradeflation in which coins would steadily get higher and higher grades over time as the market decided that the lines for grading have shifted and to combat this market acceptable cleaning. He is a staunch believer that even a light cleaning is, is perhaps not in his ideal world, a market acceptable cleaning. So, that's why you'll see a CAC sticker on a PCGS coin or an NGC coin will denote that it does not have any level of market grading, does not have an old cleaning, and that's by definition why some of the coins that will fail stickering might still be and totally validly in a straight graded holder.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:CAC grading has taken a very similar approach to stickering, which is that a coin that is not fully original that has even a hint of cleaning will be put in a details or cleaned holder according to CAC grading. So, obviously, that presents an arbitrage opportunity. There's plenty of people who like to buy CAC grading details coins, crack those out, and get them into NGC or PCGS straight graded holders, because of that, you know, dynamic and arbitrage opportunity.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. I guess it's a little bit like what you were describing a second ago. And I mentioned this in my last video about, you know, should you only buy CAC coins? I did a little quick five minute video on that question. And what it all really boils down to is learning how to grade coins and learning how to recognize these surface issues or these particular problems on coins.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Rating agencies and CAC and all of these things are not supposed to be necessarily shortcuts. They are signals to the market of a particular grade, quality and so forth. They do help to kind of commoditize and I think reduce the transaction costs, so to speak of this marketplace. But at the same time, the onus, the responsibility for the purchase still lies upon the buyer to know what they're purchasing. You're not purchasing a piece of plastic.
Tony Gryckiewicz:You are purchasing a coin that is encased and housed within a piece of plastic and it is really about that coin per se that matters. So getting an education, learning about grading specifically, learning how to recognize and identify these things is I believe exceptionally important. It isn't just for professionals. I mentioned this in my video as well. You know, spending, making an investment of a thousand or $1,500 to go out to Colorado Springs for a week and taking a grading seminar, can be a very wise investment, especially if you're planning to put fifty to a hundred thousand, $200,000 into coins into a into a coin collection.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:So I will strongly endorse your suggestion to go. And in fact, I'll endorse, your frequent guest and my business partner, Owen Seymour's class at, ANA summer seminar. He actually teaches an intro to grading class. I took it. That's actually how I met Owen and became friends and then ultimately business partners with him.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:An amazing class. It's worth everybody taking. They only have about 20 spots, so I hope this video will spur and other videos will spur people to sign up for that class.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Okay. Noah, you've probably had some coins come through your business that made you, you know, shudder. What's one that sticks out? Maybe something that was too good to be true that that wasn't.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:Well, I'm gonna share with you Tony and everyone watching my own personal experience of blindly bidding on raw coins, and I think it's important because, you know, this is like I'm not gonna pretend that I wasn't naive when I got when I first started doing this again. So I'm gonna share some of my own experiences, and I can tell you about how some of these coins worked out. So I'll start sharing my screen, and then I'll give you a sense of this. So I'm gonna show you one of the first coins that I bought, and I'm gonna share with, these are some you know, this is Noah being naive and not knowing anything about coins. All bought raw online.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:Noah thinking he knew better than everyone else and got a lesson in reality. So here's the first one. This was a high relief. You know, I I was I had stars in my eyes. I I can share the exact experience.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:I remember the day that I bid on this coin. It was a high relief. It was listed as AU. You know, that at the time was a $15,000 coin. I won this coin for about $7,000, and I said, oh my goodness.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:I just scored. I got myself a high relief for $7, and it's an AU, and I just paid for my next vacation, and I am I'm a genius. So then the coin arrived, and, oh, man, the issues on this coin. Now first off, again, I'm gonna point out, this was a high relief. It's the real deal.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:$19.00 7, an amazing coin. First time I ever laid hands on a a raw high relief. But you can tell even from this picture, there's multiple things wrong with the coin. One of them being that, you know, you could see strong horizontal white lines on the coin from where it was very harshly cleaned. You can also notice that the edge doesn't look right at all.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:The bottom edge of the coin has a huge dent or a chunk missing from it. This coin had multiple issues. It had filed rims. It was harshly cleaned. I believe it was an ex jewelry piece.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:A lot of these $19.00 7 high reliefs ended up going into jewelry and to be worn as, you know, necklaces and whatnot. And so gold being a very soft metal when it's put into one of those pieces ends up getting distorted, damaged, and warped. Now here's the thing. The coin actually was worth what I paid for it. I mean, a jewelry grade, you know, AU details, XF details, high relief is worth something like $78,000.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:So I did not get screwed on this coin. I I I bought a coin that was worth exactly or perhaps maybe a even a little bit more than what I paid for it. The issue is that I thought I was getting a straight graded AU coin, and it ended up being obviously not anything close to that. But, you know, I ended up selling the coin. It was a details coin when it came in.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:It was a details coin when it came out when I sold it. And, you know, I'm I wasn't disappointed. I I don't think I made any money, if not, you know, maybe a nominal few $100. But I think the key was setting the expectation versus the reality. So that was one of them.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:I'll give you some other examples. I remember when I got this, $18.37 Cap Bus Half. Now I want you to notice a couple things on this coin. This the coloration on this coin, is almost very similar. If you look on the right side, it has that same kind of beating that the coin that, you know, you showed us earlier has.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:That same kind of like color was applied in a certain way that, you know, ended up the whatever the material beaded on the surface. And then obviously the reverse of this coin, I'll scroll to that and show it to you, was a bright blue that, you know, is not a color that any coin like this should ever look like. So, but nonetheless, I will say a very pretty looking coin, ended up, you know, grading out, I think, at AU details. And, you know, I I paid AU details money for it expecting, you know, again, that I thought I was buying something, a a steal. It was a very pretty coin.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:Ended up being an AU details coin. Still a very pretty coin. And, you know, I I took it out of the holder, sold it raw to somebody as an AU details coin, and it was totally fine. But I think it's just worth, again, realizing that, you know, my eyes got too big. I said, beautiful coin, nice color, cap bus half.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:I really like this. The next one that I bought, this is one that I was a particularly bad one. And this one actually I did ultimately get this coin returned from the place I bought it because they did misrepresent what it was. This has almost the same color pattern as the this is an $18.96 Morgan dollar, and I I took a close-up on the reverse. You can see here.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:Do you see those dots in the field under America? Those dots are exactly what I remember, you know, you showed me on that coin that you showed the beginning of this, that $17.96. A substance was sprayed on the coin. It beat it up, and that beating is when it ended up creating those little dots. This coin, this Morgan dollar, was actually sold as a proof Morgan dollar, and that was that did cross the line.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:It was not you know, there's there's one thing to say it's an unc or an AU, but proof is actually a different type of manufacturer. This is not a proof. This was just a standard 1896 business straight Morgan dollar. And and believe it or not, one of the things about a lot of these online places is they do if you read the fine print, they do have an authenticity guarantee. They do guarantee that the coin is they don't guarantee a grade, but they do guarantee that the coin is the type or the actual coin that they represent that they sell.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:I was able to return this coin when I bought it because proof is not a grade. Proof is a method of manufacture. And when they described the coin as a proof, it was not a proof. It was a business strike coin that was obviously not, you know, uncirculated. It was an AU an AU coin because there's wear on it.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:But they were I did actually find a technicality and I was able to return the coin. But it has that same kind of artificial color that almost looks like it was spray painted on the coin there. So these are just a few examples of the ones that I've got on this one.
Tony Gryckiewicz:These are all interesting, especially the proof one. It's surprising me they described this one as being proof. I mean, it's really not it's really clear that it's not a proof, and you can't just call something a proof that that isn't. It's like me selling my truck as a Ford when I drive a Toyota. I mean, you just, you can't sell one as being the other thing.
Tony Gryckiewicz:When the online marketplace has become the wild west, you know, blurry photos, vague descriptions, inflated grades. What red flags do you always watch for?
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:I think it's important for a few things. First off, be wary of any grade that is applied to a raw coin. That is a pure caveat emptor buyer beware scenario. You and you alone are responsible for grading the coins that you look at through pictures. If you don't like the pictures or the pictures aren't good enough, don't buy the coin or ask for additional pictures.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:But but I think that is the number one thing that the only grades that you should trust when you buy a coin are the grades that are on the holder of PCGS, NGC, CAC, Annex, and to some extent, ICG because some of their newer holders are actually reasonably graded. But you wanna take even those grades, you wanna take with a grain of salt. I I think it's important to learn how to grade. But at least you have a rough outline of what those coins are graded and that the marketplace will take. But on a raw coin, if a coin is listed to you at MS as MS 68, or MS, you know, 63 or AU 53.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:That is the opinion of the seller and only the opinion of the seller, and it is you and your alone responsibility to grade the coin. So that's number one red flag. Number two red flag is just pictures that look too good to be true. I think, there is a couple sellers that are notorious on eBay, absolutely notorious for brazenly offering photoshopped and image edited photos of Morgan dollars. And I'm I'm sure a lot of people have run into these guys.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:And the thing is that it's brazen and it's not even it's not even like clever or good. It's like very obviously somebody took the blur tool to the cheek. It's very kind of like poorly done. And it's almost like what they talk about when with some of the email scammers. You know, if you recall some of the you get the the message that relative has won the lottery or you've won the lottery or relatives have left you.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:They want it to be so brazen that the the intelligent people, the people who are knowledgeable and I shouldn't even say intelligent. I should say knowledgeable. They don't want the knowledgeable people saying, is this a borderline AU 53 or AU 55? They want it to be so outlandish that if somebody actually buys it, that they won't even know that they've been scammed and that they're much like more likely to just take it and put it in their collection and call it a day. So that's why, you know, some of these these online email scams are so outlandish that, you know, the average person would never fall for that.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:But when you send a million copies of an email, you're hoping that maybe one or two of, you know, below average awareness are going to fall for it. They're the ones who are the easiest marks. So the more outlandish some of these Photoshop jobs are on some of these coins, the it's intentional. It's a feature of the seller to kind of hook in the people who just don't know anything about coins. So those are really easy to avoid.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:But just be aware. Look for those pictures that don't look right. There's another eBay seller that comes to mind that, you know, has super bright multicolored lighting. They've got the blue and the yellow and all the coins look like they're, you know, reflecting with all these colors of the rainbow from the different lighting. And and again, it it it's just if it looks too good to be true, it probably is.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:So just be aware of the lighting that you're gonna see those coins in and be aware that that's not what coins are gonna look like when they when you pull them out of the envelope and they're sitting on your desk.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. On that topic of the pictures, something that has stood out to me as a red flag is I remember one time I asked for pictures and that surprisingly enough, it was also a high relief. It was a nineteen oh seven high relief coin. This was a coin that was in a holder, in a PCGS holder, but I asked for pictures of the coins on the obverse and the reverse. The obverse was a very straight on picture.
Tony Gryckiewicz:It was a very nicely framed photo that I would expect kind of similar to a photo I would put on my website. When they sent me a picture of the reverse, it was like at an angle where the light was kind of, kind of funky and like a side view sort of of the coin. And I just remember thinking immediately like, well, why why why wouldn't the picture of the reverse look just like the picture of the obverse? And I think I asked for a picture of the reverse and they and they came back and was like, well, you know, are you gonna buy it or not? Which is a great red flag to say.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:Huge red flag.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Huge red flag. There was something there that maybe they didn't want me to see on the coin. And so, yeah, pictures. I also, especially on eBay, I look for these descriptors. When a coin has a lot of descriptors about originality and crustiness and huge descriptors, making the coin sound like it's amazing, it's usually a big red flag to me that they're trying to kind of put lipstick on a pig, so to speak.
Tony Gryckiewicz:They're trying to talk this thing up to be a whole lot greater than it actually is. So yeah, those
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:are I the commend you for even reading the descriptions of eBay listings, Tony. You're ahead of 90% of the people out there.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Thanks. I mean, I may be dressed like, you know, cured meat, but I do know what I'm doing when it comes to buying coins. At least I think I I'm getting better. I'm getting better at it. So what do you think about the role of social media groups and forums?
Tony Gryckiewicz:Are they helping educate or are they another haunted house for the uninitiated?
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:Oh, I think they're definitely most forums, if they're the good ones, and most social media groups, if they're the good ones, are absolutely helping. You know, I'll I'll throw a pitch in there. If you have not been on the Collectors Universe Forum, the PCGS Forum, a terrific group of very, very knowledgeable people. Same with the CAC Forum. If you go to forum either forum or forums.cacgrading.com, they have got a great forum there, and it's a very active group of of actually fairly major industry people.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:A lot of the folks who are pretty senior in the industry are on these forums. Social media is a little different, and and I think it's important to denote a little bit. First off, Instagram. Gotta love Instagram. That's how you and I know each other, and I think, a lot of the people that I got started in the coin industry, I know through Instagram.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:So the community and this is a pitch to all of you who are watching this, not on Instagram, but, you know, if you've not joined the kind of Instagram coin community, this is actually a wonderful group of people. I got my start there, you know, by creating an Instagram account and, you know, starting to follow people and interacting with the posts and have made friends and business partners through Instagram. It's really wonderful community of folks. You know? So that's one thing.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:Facebook is a totally different universe. I'd be very careful of Facebook because there are some very good groups on Facebook. The first one that comes to mind, Virtual Coin Show. Got a lot of very knowledgeable people on the VCS group on Facebook, so absolutely that's worth joining. You are not gonna find any scams or problems on Virtual Coin Show.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:The people it's a very self policing, self regulating group run by some of the major, you know, industry players, and all the big dealers and collectors are on Virtual Coin Show. So very, very safe, good environment. There's some other groups. If you're into early gold, you can join the pre 33 gold group run by Steven Gill and a bunch of other people. Very, very nice vetted group of people, gold enthusiasts.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:There are some CAC groups, the PCGS Rattlers groups. So there's a few that are very, very good. Now there's also a lot of very bad groups on Facebook. And, you know, Tony, it's probably worth at some point we should compile a list of the good and the bad groups. Maybe that's something you can do in the comments or in the description of one of your videos.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:But there are a lot of bad groups that are are not scams outright necessarily on Facebook, but run and and populated by very non knowledgeable people. I see a lot of these Facebook groups that get suggested to me filled with, you know, folks who just don't know what they're talking about, and the advice given is particularly bad. Another one that is both good and bad is Reddit. You know, I'm very active on the r coins subreddit and the r paper money subreddit. Both of those, again, have a lot of incredibly intelligent people.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:However, that being said, I have never in my life experienced Dunning Kruger effect as I have on as strongly as I have on Reddit. The number of posts on Reddit where someone will post a coin or a piece of paper money and people will confidently respond that, you know, this is fake or this is AU 58 or this is worth $20,000 or this is worth $200. It is remarkable. So the thing about Reddit that's tough is that a a lot of the answers, you just have to ignore a lot of the responses on Reddit. Yeah.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:Because not only are the people wrong, but they are confidently wrong. And they will tell you what a moron you are for thinking otherwise, and then they will give you completely incorrect information about your coins or paper money. That is mixed in with some people who are very intelligent and knowledgeable, and there are a lot of professionals in this business on the various Reddit groups. The paper money group has it's a little smaller, but it has a lot of very, very active folks who are in the industry. You know, there's one guy, Bradley, who works at Stacks.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:He's very active southern nemismatist. He's very, very active on the paper money group and is a very knowledgeable guy. And then the coin group, you know, there's a bunch of people who know what they're talking about, but I'll I'll never forget, one, example on the coin group. Somebody found a $17.96 quarter, which is a wonderful coin that I happen to love, one year type, and posted a picture of it raw on a Reddit group. And the number of responses he said, you know, hey.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:What is this? I got this from my grandfather's collections. Anyone have any idea? By way, totally a 100% authentic $17.96 quarter, probably in, like, VG or fine. You know, a very, very valuable many, many tens of thousands of dollar coin.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:And the number of responses of people that first off thought it was a dollar and said things like, wow, the date doesn't look right on that or the, you know, proportions look wrong. That's almost certainly a counterfeit. You don't know. You know, that's garbage. That's crap.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:That's detailed. There was, like, probably seven to one responses of people saying, you know, this is a fake coin or a replica or garbage. And then, like, a few people drowned out were like, that actually looks pretty good. You should probably get that graded. And it absolutely was a legitimate coin worth many, many tens of thousands of dollars.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:So it's it's a remarkable example. You just have to know how to filter the communities and find the right stuff. So I do recommend Reddit. I just think you gotta, you know, make sure to take it with a grain of salt. But definitely my number one suggestion for online communities for helping you learn.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:Instagram, absolutely number one, is terrific. And obviously, I mean, if you're watching if folks are watching your video, you have found a knowledgeable source in you. You know, your YouTube and Instagram stuff is very, very correct and accurate and knowledgeable. So and then, know, YouTube's another whole area. You gotta be careful on YouTube.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:There's a lot of folks there's a lot of videos on YouTube that are clickbait. You know, you got your 200,000,000 and all that stuff. And, just be very, very, very careful about who you follow and who you listen to in this industry.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Yeah. When it comes to Instagram, I would say look for a long track record of posting for a long period of time. There's Instagram scan pages that do show up that have, let's say posts going back two, three months. And that's what part of the design to create the illusion of having a established account.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Look for somebody that has a long established account. And it's really important to point out that, you know, you might think that if the person has a reference list, that means that you're, you're good to go. Sometimes those references are also in on the scam, so to speak. And this is unfortunately some of the, we were talking about bad Facebook groups. This is kind of how it works is it's a Facebook group that looks like there's 1,400 people in the Facebook group.
Tony Gryckiewicz:A lot of the people that are participating in the conversation are all in on it, so to speak. So you look and you see people that are bidding on this stuff and they're bidding that, then they're buying this and they're making offers that they're appraising this coin. All of those people are, so to speak, you know, in on the, on the scam and you, if you show up and you're like, Oh, this is a great community. Maybe I'll participate and buy one of these coins at all that, you know, it's going to be going at these great prices and beautiful stuff. You are the target, so to speak.
Tony Gryckiewicz:You are the mark. So as you, you gotta be really, really careful to kind of keep an eye out on that. And it really starts just slow. That's what recommendation, the advice that I would give is to not get out ahead of your skis, so to speak. Either start slow, start with somebody you do trust that's already in the community and get recommendations from them about what groups to join, get introductions from them to other trusted individuals.
Tony Gryckiewicz:And I mean, look, what we're saying here in this particular podcast, virtual coin show is a great one. The CAC coins group, which I'm a moderator of is a, a great one. Vintage bars for those that are into the vintage old vintage bullion stuff run by Stephen Gill, as well as the pre thirty three gold coins group, another one that's fantastic. And they do a lot of vetting of the people that come into those, into those groups. They even create categories of approved sellers and people that have kind of gone through a bit of a vetting process.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Outside of those forums, there's other networks you guys can rely upon. One is something like the professional numismatist group, the P and G. I personally am not a member yet as a new dealer. Yet. Are you a P and G dealer?
Tony Gryckiewicz:I am. I am.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:And I will happily give a recommendation to you when you're ready to join.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Oh, thank you. Thank you. Appreciate that. It's hard being serious when I'm wearing Gabagool me. It's
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:It you know, I'm going to have to I'm going to have to contact my peers, my distinguished peers at the P and G, and I'm going to say, I hereby recommend this piece of lunch meat.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Thank you. Thank you. I actually had this for lunch today, believe it or not. I had this with some salami and some asprovolone.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:I do believe you, Tony.
Tony Gryckiewicz:P and G is a good example. We also have this thing called Roundtable, Roundtable Dealers, dealer network, and that is something that I am a part of. And it is a also a vetted community of dealers. I mean, that's one
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:of on eBay that some dealers have the roundtable badge, and then they also have the CDN exchange badge. Yep. And CDN exchange is another sort of dealer to dealer trading network put on by the guys that run Greysheet. So if you see either of those two badges on an eBay seller, that's generally a good mark of trust, either round table or CDN CDN. By the way, not required.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:You know, I've got a a Rarity seven has an eBay account, and I I just don't like to have other things like that on my on my profile, but, know, obviously, that's a valid thing. And then, you know, one of the things that I would add ask to you I would add to what you said is on Instagram, you know, if you wanna make sure you're not following any scam pages, here's a super easy hint. Start out by following Tony Cabbage Coins and follow my Instagram account. My personal Instagram account is numismattack, and I'm sure, Tony, you can add some graphics or add
Tony Gryckiewicz:to the description to this for those
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:two things. And then look at who we follow because both of us, you know, follow only folks who are vetted and known in this industry. And I think I've created a pretty curated and good list of people that I follow who are are good coin industry folk. So just copy our list of people who we follow. I'm not followers, by the way, because anyone can follow us, and I I have no idea whether any of the followers are, you know, good or bad, but look at the people that we follow as our as our vetting.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:That's a great hint to get into the into the into that circle.
Tony Gryckiewicz:I'll throw a caveat about that. And and this is this specifically applies to Facebook. People have asked me, there's a couple of these scan pages that popped up on Facebook recently and they have some amazing coins. They send me friend requests and I accept a friend request and I look at the page and I've been doing this for long enough that I recognize immediately, okay, there's something off about this particular page, but I keep them as Facebook friends. Here's the reason why is because my friends who are looking at also at their pages and they're not sure, they look at the friends list, the common friends, and then they reach out to me and they say, Oh, you're friends with so and so, do you know whether they're legit or not?
Tony Gryckiewicz:And that's when I tell them, Actually, I don't know. And I think they might be a scammer page. So I actually do that as a bit of a strategy to help try to be a point of contact for my friends to contact me and ask me about so and so page that I'm connected to. I don't know, does that make sense?
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:It does. My my hesitation about that strategy is that for every person that contacts you to ask you, there may be others that see your friendship as a as a as As sign that it's okay. Yeah. And they might not reach out to you and assume, well, if Tony's friends with this person, they might be okay. So Yeah.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:On the margin, I would I personally would would prefer the not be friends with the scam pages other than than being friends with them. But, you know, that's up to you.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Got it. It's a good thought. It's scary out there folks. It can be, and that's the whole point of this little Halloween episode. Do you any horror stories that had a happy ending?
Tony Gryckiewicz:Do you I mean, maybe a coin you thought was a lost cause, but actually turned out to be a good good scenario.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:Well, you know, it's funny. I have I have purchased a lot of coins both, you know, personally and professionally, and I'm very, very lucky that, you know, more coins turn out well than they do. Otherwise, I wouldn't I wouldn't be in this business if they if they do or they don't. I have not yet had a, you know, total fraud and total, you know, complete disaster coin show up yet. So I'm lucky enough that I have bought, you know, the coins that I showed you, I bought and either was able to get out of them for, you know, basically what I paid for them or perhaps a small loss.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:And so I I've been lucky, and I will knock on my particle board fake wood desk and as as continued good luck.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. I think that the silver lining here to the unfortunate story with my my friend with specifically the Clark Gruber is that I think that coin is appreciated considerably since four years ago when that was sold at auction. So I know Yeah.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:Was looking that coin up. That's mean, even in XF details, harshly cleaned, it's still a valuable coin. I mean, there's sort of David McCarthy from Kagan's likes to talk about the kind of, you know, basal value of a coin that, you know, no matter how bad or beat up it is Yep. There is sort of a level at which it doesn't go below. High relief is a perfect example.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:The the worst high relief on earth is still a $6.07, $8,000 coin. And so as long as you're buying it in that range, there's not really much bottom that can drop out of that coin.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Well, this has been fantastic, and I'm glad that you have joined us for doing a Halloween special. I think this one's going to go down as as one of the best episodes we've done. Just Certainly the best
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:costumed episode that we've done.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Absolutely. All right. I'll definitely leave in the show notes and so forth how people can get ahold of you. Rarity seven coins and currencies. You've got a phenomenal website, which reminds me I've got so many updates I need to make my website.
Tony Gryckiewicz:You guys are on Instagram. I'll leave that below as well. And what's the next big show that people can come out to see you guys and and meet the team and and see the coins you have in inventory?
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:Three big shows coming up over the next couple months. Baltimore is next week. So if anyone on the East Coast is gonna head to the Whitman Expo in Baltimore, we will be there. Right? As you move to the left and you walk in, you'll see our table and our sign, a great show.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:And, this Baltimore, we're particularly excited about. This is one of the bigger ones, the fall Baltimore. It's number one. Number two, a very small boutique show in December. Is gonna be doing another one of their trading grade shows at the park MGM no.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:I don't remember the name of the hotel. Anyway, it's a it's a great hotel in Vegas. You can look it up on the PCGS website. And it is a it's a great little show, but a lot of the big players go there. So we'll have a small table, but a lot of the big players will be there.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:It's a boutique show, very high end. And if you're into, you know, sort of high end coins, you can go there and see some really magnificent stuff in a very small room. So definite definitely a a great, great show to go to. And then the third one, of course, is the fun show, which will be right at the beginning of the year in January. We are moving into the slow season.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:So then the next big show will be the fun show in January. That is a do not miss show if you are anywhere near Orlando, Florida in the January or are interested in seeing what is, you know, other than the ANA, kind of the world series of coin shows. The winter fun is the biggest and best bang of a coin show to get started for the year. We'll be there. I expect you will be too, Tony, and most of the coin industry.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Alright, folks. There you have it. Hopefully, you found this interesting. Please, of course, email me or email Noah.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Any further questions, leave comments below, get the conversation going, tell us what you think of the episode, what you thought about coins, leave one of your horror stories so to speak, you know, in comments below. All this can just be a community for people to learn and keep an eye out for other coins that are out there, other horror stories or coins from the crypt, so to speak. So thank you so much, Noah. I will talk to you later and all of you out there, please like, comment, subscribe, we'll talk to you in the next one.
Noah Lehmann-Haupt:Thanks, Tony.
