Ep. 5 - Finding Treasure in 20th Century Toned Coins with Timothy Chen
Hey, Timothy. I'm glad you could join us today. Another episode here of CABG Coins podcast. Welcome to the podcast. Have you seen any previous episodes, or is this your first experience in the whole CABG Coins environment here?
Timothy Chen:Hi, Tony. Yeah. Thank you very much for having me on today. Yeah. So I've I've actually watched, I believe, every single episode that you've had on so far.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Okay. Good. I put you on the spot. I did not warn you by having a question like that. I should ask all my guests whether they've ever seen the podcast before started.
Tony Gryckiewicz:But anyways, so I met Timothy over at the ANA summer seminar. The American Numismatics Association has a summer seminar. It's an education seminar. It hosts a lot of different courses in two different weeks. Anyways, Timothy and I were both in the advanced grading and problem coins seminar, and he was the like the group finalist.
Tony Gryckiewicz:We split into three different groups and all the people that we, you know, we were all grading coins. Timothy is one of the best graders, and so they selected him to be the finalizer. And that's kind of in line with how the grading companies work is that the one final person, typically a senior grader, gets to have the final kind of say of what this coin is going to grade as before it goes onto this lab. So we had some practice with doing, oh, like consensus grading. Is that right?
Timothy Chen:Right. Yeah.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Consensus grading. So we all, we all discuss what a grade could be. And then Timothy finally like put his final stamp of approval, you know, on the on the grades. It's so coming back from that, first off, I mean, what what did you think of the ANA summer seminar?
Timothy Chen:Yeah. I I thought it was fantastic, really. It was probably the most intense, like what, five days of advanced coin grading I've ever experienced in my entire life. And it was really great because the instructors, Don Ketterling, Ken Park, Jeff Garrett, they were phenomenal instructors, wealth of knowledge really. And they were all very, very analytical when it comes to explaining why a coin is a certain grade.
Timothy Chen:Why is it a 66 and not a 66 plus? And so that aspect of it was really, really eye opening. And yeah, when it comes to the actual you know, final grade, I was very fortunate to have really great team members, including you, Tony, who are able to really help me with Thanks. You know, what really finalizing what what the grade really is, in our opinion, at least.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. I thought it was a fantastic course. So so for the same reasons, I did a podcast with The Coin Geek on also another YouTube channel. We talked specifically about this ANA summer seminar. For me, it's great for the relationship building.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Think it's one of the key aspects, you know, like when you go around a coin show, you spend a short period of time doing business with people. You might go out to dinner with somebody, some friends you make, but it's rare to spend like four or five days with the same people, you know, for a number of hours within a classroom, doing breaks together, doing meals together at the chow hall. That was a really great experience. And every time I come back to the seminar, ended up making really solid friends in this industry that I ended up, you know, creating good friendships with, you know, moving forward. So I loved it.
Tony Gryckiewicz:I absolutely loved it. Now you just came also came back from another similar kind of like concentrated seminar or what exactly was it? Was with Stacks Bowers. Right?
Timothy Chen:Right. Correct. Yeah. So it's called PNP. It's the professional numismatist program, and this is like the third year doing it.
Timothy Chen:And so, yeah, it's a it's pretty much one week, and it's 25 students from the ages of 18 to 25. And, yeah, it was a really great week where we dealt into a lot of different topics in the coin industry. So we talked about, you know, also advanced coin grading. We also touched on bullion trading, how Stacks operates as a business. And there's also different electives that we can take.
Timothy Chen:For example, there was like photography elective, how to take photos of coins, learning about banknotes, and just currency in general, world currency. And we also did something like diff about like ancients. And so, yeah, it was overall just a
Tony Gryckiewicz:Oh, wow.
Timothy Chen:Nice and very well organized program.
Tony Gryckiewicz:What was the takeaway? Did you learn something particular there that you took away that it was really kinda eye opening?
Timothy Chen:Yeah. So I rarely dabble in paper money, and one of the electives I personally took was paper money. I took it with Peter and Aris who are in the World Coin Department there, and it was just really fascinating. It was really eye opening to see, like, different kinds of notes that the The US produced. And so that's something that I'm considering going into as well later down the road besides just ToneCoins.
Timothy Chen:So yeah. That, but also just being able to, you know, talk to the instructors there, the Stacks staff, and also just a lot of the students getting to know how they got started in the industry. And I hate to use this term, but I guess, quote unquote, networking. But, yeah, overall K. There's there's quite a few takeaways for sure.
Tony Gryckiewicz:I just came back from the Base Day Coin Show in outside of Boston in a place called Marlboro, and I promise everyone to get a a little bit of a review or or just a couple words about how the show went. The show was surprisingly really busy. It was awesome to see the energy within the room. Was about a 100 dealers. It was my first time doing the actual show and I had one of the best shows that I've ever had, not just for, you know, a small regional show, a local kind of regional show like the Bay State Show, but just in general, in terms of I've done the phone show, I've done the ANA World's Fair of Money.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Maybe this has to do with how my business is growing. Well, super surprising was how many people came up to the table and recognize me from the from this podcast already. Like, I've only had four episodes and people recognize me already. And actually, yeah, yeah, they were like, I think I know you from somewhere or whatever. And they're like, Oh, yeah, yeah, except the podcast.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. So anyway, that was really cool. I thought it was a really fantastic little regional show. So diving into what it is you do. So you become well known for your eye for toning, not just for the Morgan dollar though, but also for like dimes, quarters, half dollars.
Tony Gryckiewicz:How did you first get into that side of the market?
Timothy Chen:Yeah. So I got in the market when I first started in about 2013, I'd say, when my mom first bought me a Red Book. It was only it was it was $9 and $95.95 cents, and she purchased it for me for $10. I got a Buffalo, Nickel, and Change. That's what really got me hooked.
Timothy Chen:And then over time, as I got a little bit more involved by going to different coin shows and really just doing online searches about how much auction records for really cool coins were going for. And then over time I saw there's a lot of these coins that have color on them. That's why are these going for like TEDx, a regular blast white example would go for. And from there, I'm just like, I was just really shocked by how unique these, you know, these types of tone coins were. And so over time, I started to go into that direction.
Timothy Chen:Just really nice high eye appeal coins.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So do you think so we just did a full episode about Rainbow Morgans. It was a great little like introduction introduction, a little taster for folks.
Tony Gryckiewicz:We looked at some really pretty spectacular toning. It was a very great educational episode. But you've also carved out a niche in some of the more overlooked denominations with regard to color, you know. So why do you in my opinion, mean, in your opinion, why do you think like Roosevelt Dimes or Washington Quarters can be just as interesting or maybe if not more so than than the Morgans.
Timothy Chen:Yeah. I think they're the first of all, they're overlooked primarily because their size. Right? It's a smaller canvas. Like, you look at Silver Eagles and, like, a Morgans that have really nice color.
Timothy Chen:Those typically would go for more just because, you know, it's a bigger canvas. But yeah. I mean, there's I mean, there's so many collectors out there that are putting together really nice sets that you know, PCGS registry sets of, you know, Roosevelt Dimes, Ike dollars, Washington quarters, and a large guess a large part as to why people don't really look in that direction is because they would much rather have a figure of the beautiful Lady Liberty instead of a president that's no longer with us. And so in that aspect, that's why I feel like a lot of people overlook it. But, yeah, I mean, there's there's definitely definitely for sure collectors out there who are willing to pay pretty good money for really nicely toned Roosevelt Dimes, quarters, dollars.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Do you think the market is still catching up to the beauty of these, quote, unquote, know, less glamorous coins, you know, the the the Roosevelt dimes and the Jefferson nickels, even the Washington quarter, you know, though these ones that can have the spectacular toning, do you think the market's still kinda catching up to on the beauty of those, or are they still underrated in your opinion?
Timothy Chen:I would still say that they're they're pretty underrated just because, like I said, the arbors isn't nearly as beautiful as, you know, a Morgan dollar for most people's eyes. And yeah. I mean, if I had a crystal ball, you know, I would definitely know whether or not to buy more or less of those types of coins. But I think it's just because more modern coins with color can be a little bit more difficult to sell as well. A slightly smaller market with tone modern compared to earlier, like, Morgan or Trade Dollar or Mercury and Wheatcent type of tone coins in that era.
Timothy Chen:But yeah. I mean, I think it's it's the market is still on its way to catch up. Yeah.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. So let's get into some of these examples.
Tony Gryckiewicz:So you sent over a lot of really great pictures and we got a bit of them here to go through, but I think all of it's going to be pretty educational and instructive. So I'm going to pause here just to share the screen and we'll get back into it. Okay. So what I see on the screen is we have a Lincoln cent with some incredible color. We have a Roosevelt dime, Roosevelt dime, Roosevelt dime, whatever.
Tony Gryckiewicz:We've got Buffalo. We got a Washington quarter. You could tell that I don't deal in these particular series at all. My coins are usually more older stuff. But anyways, and then we have the Franklin Franklin Half Dower.
Tony Gryckiewicz:All of these has spectacular toning to them. Give us a little lay of the land here, a little explanation of of the platter here, so to speak, and what what are we looking at in terms of, you know, kind of the grade of these coins, what type of toning this is, and approximately, you know, value.
Timothy Chen:Yeah. For sure. So this is pretty much a classic example of what we call mid set toning. So basically, the government, they issued mid sets double mid sets, more specifically from 1947 all the way until 1958. And it was during '56, '57, and '58 when these boards actually had produced a lot of really colorful tone coins primarily just because of the sulfur content within these boards.
Timothy Chen:And So first off, we have like 57 d Lincoln Wheatstone, which typically speaking isn't anything special. However, this has got really, really nice color. And so this one is actually in a '67 red brown holder, and it's a pop 11 with none finer. And so coin like that with that kind of eye appeal would definitely trade in the 15 to $21,500 to $2,000 mark. Yeah.
Timothy Chen:And then like we also have like Roosevelt Dime. This one's a pretty regular example of a common common day with relatively nice color of Roosevelt Dime. It's in 66 holder. It's about about a $203,100 dollar coin. Okay.
Timothy Chen:Yeah. And we also have the 57 quarter, which is also 66, around $200. 58 d, this one is in a 66 plus FBL, right around $600.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Okay. So you mentioned these these mid sets, and I've seen these before. Basically, they're like two cardboard, like, I don't know what you want to call them, two, I don't know, holders or two cardboard pieces of cardboard basically that have the whole set of all of the business strike points, which is an important piece, important point, because I know we have in the slides here a proof set. Do you also have a picture of mint set, by the way?
Timothy Chen:I do. Yeah, the very one.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Very next one. Okay, perfect. Let's take a look. This is what a mint set would look like. As you can see, they would have two, it looks like, of everything.
Tony Gryckiewicz:So that you had the Franklin half, you had the the Washington quarter, the Jefferson and the Roosevelt, one Jefferson, one no, two Jefferson's, two Roosevelt's, and two Lincoln sets. And this was referred to as a mint set. And the key here is that these were all business strike coins. These were not proofs. There's also proof sets, which we'll get to in a second.
Tony Gryckiewicz:A lot of people call me saying I've got mint sets to sell and what they actually mean is they got proof sets to sell or whatever, or, you know, they got these things, want to know what the value is of them. These mint sets are actually fairly rare to find today because I believe people mostly, take the coins out because they've got spectacular toning usually and they get them individually graded. Is that Yeah,
Timothy Chen:exactly.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Gotcha. So there was sulfur content kind of within the cardboard as well as within the paper. And that was would be what kind of produced some of the toning that we saw on this other screen.
Timothy Chen:Mhmm. Yeah. It was specifically '56, '57, and '58 is when used a slightly different I believe it was a paper material that had the sulfur content. So that's why a lot of 56, '57, and 58 business strike coins from these holders developed really, really nice color.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Interesting. Interesting. Okay. Let's let's move on. So we got some more Roosevelts here.
Tony Gryckiewicz:This is from 1946, all of these. Can you tell me about the toning pattern of of these?
Timothy Chen:Yeah. So those are what we call tab tone coins. So these are coins that were put in holders that had a little tab for the most part. There's also different version of it. And so these three in particular, there was a little tab that held the coin in place.
Timothy Chen:And over usually the course of decades, the really nice toning would develop from sulfur within these paper like envelopes, Yeah. If you Yeah. Yeah. And so yeah.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Is it so is this kind of an example of one of those holders or or Right. That would produce a tab? Or
Timothy Chen:Yeah. So this is the one I couldn't find one that had specifically just that one tab right across in the middle. This is more of like half of the coin where it's showing. So usually like half of the coin would be toned, the other half would be like a different color or sometimes even almost blast white with very little toning. But yeah, these were often kept in these types of holders.
Timothy Chen:And it was all of these are like kind of promotional holders where Yeah. You can like save or change. As you can see there, there's like every single dime you put in, you know, it adds up by 10¢ all the way until $3.
Tony Gryckiewicz:This is so it's so interesting that that we used to because I don't know if this was like a kid's. This is like a gift or something that you would give to, like, a child. Say, hey. Save up your money, and it'll teach you that, you know, 10¢ a week or something adds up $3. Then you could spend some, you know, buy something for $3 I just don't know if we do things like this today.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Is actually problem. I think it's I think this prob. Yeah. Your $3 can now get you. I don't even know if I can get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.
Timothy Chen:Probably not.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Maybe. Actually, yeah. It depends depending on where you're you're at. If you're in an airport, no. If you're in the middle of, like, where I live here in farm country, yeah, I think I think we could get you a cup of coffee for $3.
Tony Gryckiewicz:But interesting, interesting stuff. So that type of thing would produce like this tab toning kind of color and cones, coins, cones, coins like this. I really like actually these. So these are 1946 is not a difficult date. And in terms of grades, these look to be definitely within that realm of like a '66.
Tony Gryckiewicz:I mean, you're the finalist. You tell me.
Timothy Chen:Yeah. So these are coins that are on all three graded actually 67, which typically is, you know, $6.06, 67 for this type of coin really doesn't there's really not much difference in terms of price. But yeah. I mean, for example, the top one right there, that one is the prettiest for the most part. It's got better color, deeper, richer color.
Timothy Chen:So that coin, I'd say it's right around $300, and the bottom two are roughly probably like $200 each.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah.
Timothy Chen:And yeah. I mean but if you get them in, mercury dimes that have this type of toning, it's definitely gonna be worth more.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Okay. Yeah. I like like the color here, and I like the fact that for $200, you know, I can kinda get some pretty awesome looking coin here of Franklin Roosevelt. Nice. Very nice.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Let's move on here. So now we have, this is definitely a proof. You know, I need to do an episode. Well, I know I'm doing an episode on coin grading. And in that episode, we're going to talk about the difference of clear cut sign differences between proofs and business strike coins.
Tony Gryckiewicz:This is a proof you can tell mostly through the reflective surfaces as well as the the wire edge or the how well the edges of the coin are finished off. But anyways, so tell us a little bit about this, how this was produced, because this would have come in a proof set, right? Which are the cellophane packets. I think we got a picture of it here. This is what a proof set looks like from the treasury department.
Tony Gryckiewicz:This is usually what people think of. They call them these mint sets. These are actually proof set. These are all proof coins. And you actually can see that little, the Jefferson nickel here actually having the same kind of kind of tone.
Tony Gryckiewicz:So what what produced this kind of color? Was it the cellophane or what what was going on?
Timothy Chen:Yeah. Very good question. Yeah. So this is a classic example of cellophane or cellotoning. And basically, from what I understand, the government tried to mess with some of the, like, different dips with these coins that were proofs.
Timothy Chen:And I believe it was from 1959 till around 1964 where a lot of these types of cellophane toned coins were produced. Large majority of these are like are nickels. Some of them are also the scents as well that come with color. But yeah, for the most part, they were they they were the the proof nickels that developed this pretty nice color. Usually, they do trade for a premium, but not a very big premium.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, it's a proof Jefferson nickel. So, I mean, roughly, how much would something like this with the cellophane toning color go for?
Timothy Chen:Mhmm. Yeah. So I believe this was a 66, a proof 66. Quite if I recall correctly, it's probably right around a $100.
Tony Gryckiewicz:$100. Interesting. Interesting. I was gonna say it's about the cost of a nice meal or so. You can have yourself a cellophane colored Jefferson nickel, or you can have a nice steak dinner, I guess.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Your choice. Depending on my company, I might go for the Jefferson nickel. So moving moving on here. So okay. I love these.
Tony Gryckiewicz:These are all these all have really nice nice color. So we have, again, the buffalo. I'm sorry. Bob, why do I keep calling this little this is Washington quarter. What?
Timothy Chen:I I said I think you love I think you liked buffalo nickels too much. It's a very pretty design. It's
Tony Gryckiewicz:actually one of
Timothy Chen:my least favorite. Nickel design as well. So Yeah.
Tony Gryckiewicz:I I just I just sold a three legged buffalo at this last show, and it was actually probably within the number of Buffalo nickels I've had in my inventory had been less than 10. I think in all the years of doing it so far, I've had less than 10 Buffalo nickels. So I don't know. It just must be on the brain right now. I don't know.
Tony Gryckiewicz:But anyways, this is actually one of my favorite coins because this is the Bicentennial quarter and the Bicentennial quarter had the little drummer boy. And so as a kid, 1982, I was born, you know, in the eighties, I would look through change and I would find these Jabber Boy Bicentennial quarters, and I always thought that was super cool and they were interesting, but that's what this is. This must have been approved. So this had this was silver. Right?
Timothy Chen:The yeah. These are all business strikes.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Oh, these are all business strikes?
Timothy Chen:Correct.
Tony Gryckiewicz:So with the business strike though, it was clad. So tell me about the toning here in in the clad coin.
Timothy Chen:Yeah. For sure. So similar to you, Tony, this is 9076 is one of my favorite years for really nicely toned coins. But, yeah, these three coins, they're typically from third party sets. And because it was a bicentennial year, there's a lot of these third party sets that were produced to house these types of coins.
Timothy Chen:And over time, sulfur from these cardboard sets would leach onto the coins themselves and develop a very thin layer of toning. A large majority of them have peripheral toning along the edges. And, yeah, I mean, it's it's a pretty popular design when it comes to, you know, modern coins. And, yeah, same thing with the Dremel Boy. I really, really resonate with that.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. But can you maybe give me a little bit of education. So I didn't know that clad coins. So we're talking about coins that did not have silver content. The coin that were made past 1965.
Tony Gryckiewicz:These coins also toned from interaction with with sulfur.
Timothy Chen:You're saying you need the powder one. Correct.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. So these also interacted with sulfur and there was a kind of reaction because what we learned with, from, from Jacob at the previous episode was what was on the surface of the Morgan was, was sulfur interacting with silver. So was like a silver sulfide kind of compound, I guess. So here we don't have silver, but we still have a reaction of sulfide with the base material that's in, in these coins. So I guess I'm just, I was wondering if you knew a little bit about the science of science here.
Tony Gryckiewicz:The the sulfur is this thing that's producing the color. Is it also anything you have to do with the metal that's in the coin?
Timothy Chen:Right. Yeah. So it's it's also also applied to the clad coins themselves. It also turns it into that kind of rainbow color. So it's not just silver or even copper coins.
Timothy Chen:It also gets onto these clad clad coins, which is how the rainbow toning was was produced.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Oh, okay. So this is just the silver interacting with the environment, not necessarily silver sulfur. I'm sorry. This is just the sulfur reacting with the environment, not necessarily a compound of silver sulfide.
Timothy Chen:Well, yeah, it also
Tony Gryckiewicz:reacts with the
Timothy Chen:coin itself as well.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Interesting. Okay.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Alright. So we have the we got the Kennedy half. We have the we got the Eisenhower dollar here. Ike dollars are not, you know, super collectible. I wouldn't.
Tony Gryckiewicz:I think there's some people out there that collect these, but it's interesting to get some with Tony. Can can the value of an Ike dollar with toning really get crazy or no?
Timothy Chen:Yeah. Absolutely. Really good question. Some of the Ike dollars that I personally seen can have incredible rainbow toning, and I would all almost say, like, monster toning. And yeah.
Timothy Chen:I mean, it's just primarily the design isn't really popular with collectors. But yeah. Ikes can also develop really nice toning, whether it's silver or clad.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Okay. So give us a rough idea about these three coins in terms of value.
Timothy Chen:Yeah. For sure. So for example, the the first one, 1976. Quarter that one, I don't recall if it was in a '65 or '66. Hold on.
Timothy Chen:I wanna say '65, but in terms of grade, it really wouldn't make too big a difference for the price. I mean, yeah, so something like that would probably be right around a 150 to $200. It's got nice, what we refer to most as peripheral toning or some people would call it Yeah. Target toning as well. And Yeah.
Timothy Chen:We also have a nineteen seventy six Sineel Kennedy half. And so that one, yeah, it's right around the $300, $400 mark. And we also have the 76 Ike. That one, I'd say it's right around $200. Yeah.
Timothy Chen:Maybe a little bit more depending on who you're selling to.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Nice. Alright. Cool. Very good. Thank you.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Let's can we keep going? So this is, I guess, where these three coins oh, so this would be the set that they that they Yeah. Came
Timothy Chen:The third party set. There's so many different versions of it, and sometimes there's just one specifically for a quarter, one specifically for the Kennedy, and one specifically for the Ike. But, yeah, this is
Tony Gryckiewicz:just an
Timothy Chen:example of third party board
Tony Gryckiewicz:So when you say third party, what do you mean? When you say third party, what do you mean?
Timothy Chen:Like, a lot them were for, like, private companies that made boards that were supposed to commemorate that specific design. And so it's Okay. Not, I guess, not government issued is what I'm referring to.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. So I wonder if they would sell these for more than the value of the coins. I'm assuming there was some kind of additional amount here. This is an enter enterprising company that basically took this change, these coins, put them into a board and sold this as a bicentennial collection, essentially.
Timothy Chen:Right.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Is that right? Correct. Gotcha. Interesting. Okay.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Alright. So we have another another good coin. I would say this is what is this? This is the oh, remind me what this design is. This is Gettysburg.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Right?
Timothy Chen:There it is. Yeah. Gettysburg.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Okay. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about this one.
Timothy Chen:Yeah. So this is another example of tap toning. And so these have the tap toned coins. I think it was like Gettysburg. I think Teetham had it.
Timothy Chen:Oregon Trail had it. Norfolk had it. And there's a few more as well, but a lot of these coins that toned this way came from original tab toned sets, if you will. Yeah. So if you go on to the next slide.
Timothy Chen:Yeah. There it is. So, yeah, these came in these types of little sets and oftentimes because of how the little tab was placed, it would develop a really cool pattern. And sometimes Mhmm. The toning can be phenomenal.
Timothy Chen:Sometimes this particular example with the Oregon, it's it's okay. It's not what I would consider to be attractive, but I'd say it's Yeah. You know, in terms of toning, it's like mid of the road. Nothing special. But sometimes Okay.
Timothy Chen:It can turn, you know, tone a very phenomenal color.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. I've seen these that are a little bit more strong or vibrant or whatever with the same exact toning. It comes from these cards, which I was assuming this is just one of the ways that they probably sold these commemorative halves to the to the public. So talk about value in terms of this. We've got a lot of colors in this one and this really overall fairly attractive Gettysburg coin.
Tony Gryckiewicz:There's a lot of these commemorative half dollars. There's a lot of them in the market. They don't get start getting expensive until you get into the 66, 67, I'm a 67, 68 kind of range. So what's the grade in this? And then due to the color, what do we look at in terms of market value?
Timothy Chen:Right. So this coin, a grade PCS 67. And so a coin like this without the color, it's probably gonna be anywhere from 1,500 to 1,800 in that range. But with the color and just how original the coin really is, that's about 3,000 or $3,500. And, yeah, a lot of collectors really like the original originality of the coin and the fact that it has nice color definitely increases the price.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Interesting. Okay. And you got we got the blue and some of this almost like a mean, like an orange. It almost looks like a pumpkin orange of sorts, maybe.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Very, very attractive. Very nice. All right. So this is a little different.
Tony Gryckiewicz:This is now going a little bit even more modern. We're looking at here at a Silver Eagle. So tell us a little bit about the toning of this and what this does to the value of this coin.
Timothy Chen:Yeah. For sure. So this is a Silver Eagle with really nice peripheral toning, and a lot of these types of Silver Eagles with this kind of a look often came from US issued clamshell boxes. Basically, just kind of like what the name implies. It's a it's a box where you open like clamshell.
Timothy Chen:And yeah. There it is. And so in terms of value, so this coin, I believe it graded either 67 or 68. It's right around 800 to $1,200 range just because it's got really nice rainbow color along the the periphery there.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Have you ever seen a a Silver Eagle that's been, from a toning perspective, have pushed the value, you know, north of, you know, few few thousand dollars Yeah. You know, due to the toning?
Timothy Chen:Yeah. Absolutely. I think that's that's a really great point as well, Tony. Yeah. So a large majority of the coins that we've discussed so far and that we will continue discussing, all of those I would consider to be mid of the road slash slightly higher end coins that would that you can typically find in at a coin show.
Timothy Chen:But, yeah, to your question, those types of coins yeah. I've seen ones that are over actually 5 figures before, and there's many Silver Eagles that I've also handled that are in the several thousand dollar range. Just really depends on eye appeal.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. So you're referring to like a a common year Silver Eagle that due to the color has been north of $10,000?
Timothy Chen:Yeah. Mhmm. Absolutely.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Okay. Interesting. I would love to
Timothy Chen:There's one I saw that was just it was extremely vibrant, incredible luster, and it's got full aubers toning. Yeah. And and here's the thing too, with pricing on really any toned coins that is significantly more than what a blast white example would go for. When it comes to pricing, it's very, very subjective. It really is.
Tony Gryckiewicz:I've several instances
Timothy Chen:where like, coin to someone is $200. Take it to literally the next dealer at the show right across, and it's $2,000 coin to them. Right? So it's very subjective. It's probably the most subjective part in the coin market when it comes to pricing.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Sure. Sure. Sure. You don't mention where you got it from, I guess. You know, in that scenario.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. That the guy right across the way had this coin. But anyways, alright. So talking to here. So now I recognize this.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Our viewers should recognize this from from our conversation last week. We have a Morgan dollar on the with a reverse here. This is also a comes from a type of tab toning. So what were these holders? When when were these produced?
Timothy Chen:Yeah. So these were, like you said, tab toned Morgans, and these were put in these types of holders. They're pretty much also like it's a it's an album, and you could see along the on the left hand side there, you saw the the the rings, that's where you, you know, it's an album. Yeah. And so in terms of when it was produced, I'm not a 100% sure, but I wanna say probably late nineteen hundreds, maybe early twenty first century, because I I certainly don't see them produced, you know, in this anymore.
Tony Gryckiewicz:This to me, just based on the construction, I'm seeing this as being late nineties, maybe early two thousands or something possibly. But so so this would fit a Morgan like this one and the tab is across the center there. Nice. It's very nice. So this is a reverse toner.
Tony Gryckiewicz:What would be approximately well, grade wise here, it's hard to tell because because the grade is mostly on the from the obverse. But Yep. What was this coin if you can recall, and what
Timothy Chen:was the
Tony Gryckiewicz:value of it?
Timothy Chen:Yeah. I believe it was at 89 and 63, if I'm not mistaken. Let me Okay. It's pretty
Tony Gryckiewicz:common coin.
Timothy Chen:Yeah. 89. It was an NGC 63 holder. And, yeah, it's it's so because it's toned on the reverse, actually, which is something we'll go on to the next few coins, but it's toned on the reverse, and so that's gonna bring a little bit less value for the most part. It's about right on 200, maybe $2.50 in that range.
Timothy Chen:However Okay. Because if it was if it was tap tone on the obverse actually, it would probably be in the $500 range. But the way that they were constructed, the actual albums themselves and how you put the coin in it, if you put it incorrectly Mhmm. It'll be reversed toned. But if you put it incorrectly, it'll be averse tab toned, which would be more valuable.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Interesting. People did not weren't able to foresee that in this scenario. Funny. Interesting.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Alright. So now we have this one here. So what can you tell us about this? This is in 1921. So this the very last year of the Morgan dollar.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Morgan dollar was produced up to nineteen o four. And then there was like a break, essentially, a period where I think after World War one, they wanted to reintroduce a Morgan dollar. I'm sorry, reintroduce a silver dollar. They're working on the design for the peace dollar as a result of, you know, World War one peace dollar to commemorate that and celebrate that. But they brought back the Morgan dollar.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Interesting tidbit. They actually redesigned the dyes again in 1921 to produce the Morgan dollar for this one final year. But anyways, so that's a side note. What can you tell us here about the the color I'm looking at, market value, that kind of thing?
Timothy Chen:Right. Absolutely, Tony. So generally speaking, I mean, 21 Morgans, especially 21 p Morgans, aren't anything special. There were so many produced during that last year. And so typically speaking, yeah, twenty one's nothing special.
Timothy Chen:However, twenty one's typically, they don't really come with nice color. And so you have '21, even PDNS into twenty one's would generate considerably more money than a really common date earlier on in a series. So this particular example, it's a 21D in '63. It's right around $3,000 to $3,500 It's got really nice target toning as well. And so this coin is most likely pulled from a Wait Raymond album.
Timothy Chen:And so we'll also go into that. Yeah. There it is. Yeah. So Wait Raymond albums, a lot of really, really fantastic coins with really nice original color came from these types of albums.
Timothy Chen:And, yeah, usually, albums would produce that kind of peripheral or bullseye slash target toning.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. So this is also considered natural toning. Correct? Because Right. The coin sat in this holder in this album for decades, and the processes that occurred slowly over time ended up changing the color of the of the coin.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Is that correct?
Timothy Chen:Correct. Yeah. So we can well, we can discuss for quite a long time what's natural, what's artificial. But yeah. To your point, Tony.
Timothy Chen:Yeah. Usually, if it's a coin that's put in these types of albums and, you know, it sat for, you know, several years, sometimes, you know, decades, then, yeah, for the most part, that would be considered quote unquote natural toning.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the topic of artificial versus natural toning is a nebulous little topic. It's a little bit philosophical. It's an interesting one.
Tony Gryckiewicz:I'll give you a I'll give you the floor in a little bit to to to tell us a little bit what you think about, you know, what where do you draw the line on on that question? But let's move on to the next one. So we have this guy right here. We have a lot of color here, a lot of different colors I see, even though I am color blind, but I do recognize, I mean, yellow is a is a better color. I I understand.
Tony Gryckiewicz:And we got a lot of different colors going on here. So tell us a little bit about this coin.
Timothy Chen:Yeah. For sure. So this is an $83.00 Morgan, I believe, a 64 holder. And, actually, it's funny. This is a coin that actually sold to a mutual friend of ours, Noah.
Timothy Chen:And yeah. So this coin, it's a classic example of what we consider rainbow toning. It's got so many different colors from, you know, the spectrum of rainbow colors. And yeah. It's it's overall, it's it's a it's a fantastic coin with great eye appeal.
Timothy Chen:Very common date, you know, eighty three o's and '64 are absolutely nothing special. But because of this color, it's one of those coins that I would personally value at right around 4 to $5,000.
Tony Gryckiewicz:I was thinking the same. Yeah.
Timothy Chen:Yeah. It's it's got really nice color, and it's certainly a coin that I wouldn't mind owning again.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Where how was this color produced? Yeah. If you had to take a guess. Was this a mint bag? Was this a treasury bag kind of color?
Timothy Chen:Yeah. A large majority of these types of toned coins came from original bank bags, can canvas bags that had a lot of silver content. And, yeah, they just sat in bank vaults for decades and until someone opened it up and saw, wow, this coin's got a fantastic color. It looks all you know, it looks different from all the other coins.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Sure. Sure. Sure. Okay. Alright.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Interesting. Let's move on to the next one here. And so we have another I really like this one a lot. This one has a lot of, I guess, purple and I guess magenta colors to it. It has a fantastic look to it.
Tony Gryckiewicz:I want to take a stab here at market value. Okay. And you can tell me
Timothy Chen:your expert.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Let's do great.
Timothy Chen:It's an E5-zero and 65.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Okay. It's an 80 five-zero. 80 five-eighty five-zero is, that's a common coin, right? Or no?
Timothy Chen:Very common. Very, very common.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Okay. Very, yeah. It's tough. I mean, there's so many, there's so many different Morgans, you know, to know all of them in terms of when they get valuable and when it's not, it's, it's, it's really a challenge, but anyways, okay. So the 80 five-zero in 60 '5.
Tony Gryckiewicz:So very common coin we're looking at probably, I'm guessing $120 for a normal blast white coin, something around around there, maybe one, maybe $1.50. So with this color, I mean, I like how saturated it is. I think that the focal area is really nice. The deep purplish color right through there. It's not completely covered.
Tony Gryckiewicz:We have a bit of a a crescent a crescent here. I'm thinking this is, like, 3,500 to $4,500, somewhere in that range.
Timothy Chen:Interesting. Okay. Yeah. I mean, while you certainly are not wrong, I would personally value it right around $2,000. Okay.
Timothy Chen:Yeah. I mean, it's you're you're not wrong at all. I I'm sure there's someone out there who are would be more than willing to to pay more than my estimate of it. But From I guess No. But A coin like it's this is what we would call crescent toning.
Timothy Chen:You see that little crescent on the bottom there? So most likely not most likely, almost certainly a coin sat on top of this coin to produce that kind of pattern. But, yeah, it's it's a very lovely coin, and Yeah. I I this I handled it for probably less than probably less than, like, three weeks, and it was a pretty quick sell for me. Yeah.
Timothy Chen:It's got a really nice color for sure.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if I'm looking at this thing and I'm I'm getting my gut feel, I'm still learning about this market, but I'm saying it's 35 and you're asking me for 2,500 for this thing, I would probably pull the trigger and take a take a chance on it because I think it's I mean, luster is a huge, huge factor, and that's why I'm not getting out of the picture. This feels pretty lustrous from the from the picture, I would say. Was it in hand?
Timothy Chen:So it's $85.00. Yeah. I mean, it's the type of luster that you would expect from a Orleans mint. But that's a great point, Tony, because if this was like on a 80 even a common 8080 s, '81 s, or '82 I would believe that, you know, it would bring considerably more just because the luster is different.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Luster.
Timothy Chen:Most people who collect tone coins would prefer estimate over oment coin. So but yeah. So that's what saying. If it wasn't like if it was a common 81 s something like that, you know, your estimate of what? 3,000, 4,000 might not be wrong.
Timothy Chen:Yeah. But because it's an Omen Okay. The luster comes a little more flat, more of a matte look, it would command usually a lower price.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Okay. For the sake of time, let's keep going through these other ones. So this guy, kinda go over tell me a little bit about this one. Yeah.
Timothy Chen:Real quick. So, yeah, this is a common '81 s Morgan, but it's got really nice reverse color. And you see those little dots on the very top of the eagle there? That's what we refer to as textile toning. It's from the the pattern in the actual bank bag themselves.
Timothy Chen:That's what caused that kind of textile pattern. So this is actually a very very common as a matter of fact, pretty low grade coin. The obverse has got so much chatter on the cheek on all the high points. It's actually only great at 62. Anyone else that's in 62 probably trade for, what, maybe $60.60 bucks probably?
Timothy Chen:Because of the reverse toning on this one and with the textile toning, this is about right around a $1,500 coin, and this was also a pretty quick sell for me as well. If it was on the obverse though, we're talking right around 3,000 potentially more.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Okay. Okay. I know with the this is referred to as end roll toe end roll toning. Correct? Because of the the little sleeves that they would be sitting in, the the rolls that would kinda fold over, and then this coin would be on the end of the roll, and you would get this pattern here.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Right?
Timothy Chen:Right. Absolutely. So exactly. That's what we call as EOR or end of roll toning. And so, basically, these types of coins would be on the very end of a roll, a customer wrapped roll.
Timothy Chen:Basically, they would just put the little flaps to cover the surface of the coin. And over decades, it produced really, really nice toning just because of the sulfur content from those paper rolls. Yeah. And so this is a 85 also an 85 o, very common. It graded 64.
Timothy Chen:So quite like this, it's right around 3 to $4,000.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Okay. Good to know. Good to know. That's kind of probably where I would where I would place it. I'd like to color the other one better, but this is more spectacular.
Tony Gryckiewicz:There's more more going on here. Okay. Plus you got the the you got the patterns. That's really cool. So you're pretty used to seeing this as like a target toning.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Basically, it looks like a target, obviously. So Right. Yeah.
Timothy Chen:What are
Tony Gryckiewicz:looking at here?
Timothy Chen:So this, more specifically, what we we would refer to as horseshoe toning because
Tony Gryckiewicz:Oh, okay.
Timothy Chen:Along the edges there. Yeah. But no. Technically, you're you are right. It's has that target kind of look to it, but it has more toning along the periphery from the left and right and also the top.
Timothy Chen:While on the date right there, it's a very thin layer of toning, so it has more of that horseshoe kind of a shape to it. There's some that are more pronounced than others and ones that look exactly like a horseshoe. So this is kind of more in the middle of, like, it's all it's a horseshoe, but I can also see it kind of being a target as well. But, yeah, this is another common date, '83 o Yeah. And '64.
Timothy Chen:It's probably like a $800 coin in that range. Probably a little bit more if someone really likes that horseshoe kind of a look.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Yeah. There's not there's not really much color in the on the cheek and the focal area of the cheek here. There's there's good color right in front of the eyes, but, yeah, most of the coin is white. I mean, just on a percentage basis, I would say, maybe it's fifty fifty or so, but because there's a lot of it through the through the periphery.
Tony Gryckiewicz:But overall, pretty pretty coin. So this is two sided. Right? Is that the the special aspect here?
Timothy Chen:This So is a dual sided coin. And typically, would just show the obverse, but this time, I'll also show the reverse because the reverse has also a really nice color. But yeah. This is the type of coin we'd call cat's eye, Tony, because on the obverse, it looks like cat's eye. And what happened is Okay.
Timothy Chen:When it was when the coin was most likely in a bank bag, there is a coin that sat on top of the coin creating one crescent. And over time, usually, know, coins shifted in the bags. Usually, that same exact coin or secondary coin would sit on the opposite end creating the opposite crescent. So it looks like a cat's eye. And so what is really cool though is not only the cat's eye toning, but it's got a really nice reverse color as well.
Timothy Chen:And it's also an $0.04 0 mint coin, which is slightly tougher date for a nice color. But, yeah, this is in a '65 holder, and I'd say it's right around a 4,000 coin. It's got really, really nice color. And, yeah, not the typical kind of coin you'd see for Cat's Eye because, you know, like I said, Rivers color is pretty cool too.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Yeah. Nice. Nice. Okay. And so what's special about this one?
Tony Gryckiewicz:I mean Yeah.
Timothy Chen:So now we're getting into really interesting topics, you know, about older holders, and then we can also talk about cats and stickers as well. But, yeah, this is a very common 81 s coin, but it's got really nice color. So typically a coin like that, you know, it's right around, I'd say $6,700, but because it's in an old school PCGS rattler holder, it's right around 1,200 to $1,500. And then if you wanna add a green cat sticker, it's probably gonna add another $304,100 dollars. But then if you want the big boy, if you want the the gold CAC, you know, a coin like that with the gold CAC, $64.81 as common, you know.
Timothy Chen:But with the color, Rattler, Gold CAC, it's probably gonna be around $3,000, Potentially more as well to someone who really likes collecting old Rattlers with Gold Cacs.
Tony Gryckiewicz:I see. Gold Cacs, probably a topic for another conversation to explain all how that works. But good good good segue, good good point here. We have our final little batch here of these old holders. So we have a little CAC sticker right there.
Tony Gryckiewicz:CAC stands for Certified Acceptance Corporation. This is a third party or like a fourth party, whatever you want to call it, that essentially certifies the stated grade and they put their sort of stamp of approval on the coin as being in the upper tier of quality for the stated grade. So that's a whole we could probably do a whole episode just on explaining and talking about that. But anything else you wanna kinda cover on our last slide here before we wrap up?
Timothy Chen:Mhmm. I just wanna briefly mention that there's so many different types of tone coins, so many different types of tone coins and holders, and so many different hoards, different collections that tone coins can come out of. I just threw up a few examples. There's, you know, there's Redfield holders. There's Paramount holders.
Timothy Chen:There's GSA holders. There's also coins that are really nicely toned, especially more particularly Morgans from really well known collections as the Binion collection or the Binion hoard, and same thing with the Battle Creek. And these types of coins, because of the pedigree essentially of the provenance, we know, like, where the coins are from, they would command doing a premium on top of the color premium of the coin. So
Tony Gryckiewicz:yeah. So you have multiplying factors here. You have Exactly. The the rarity of the coin itself, then you have the color aspect and all the factors that that play into more valuable coin luster and placement of colors and what colors are on the coin. Then you have what holder the coin is in.
Tony Gryckiewicz:And especially if it's in one of these old holders, these rare holder, part of a rare collection like the Battle Creek collections, a very famous collection of toned coins. You know, if it's part of that, the pedigree adds to the value of it. And then lastly, know, what is the final grade and what, you know, has CAC put their stamp of approval on the, on the coin, so to speak. There's a lot of variables that all yeah, variables and and factors that can continue to keep kind of throwing the multiple of what a coin could be worth. Very interesting.
Tony Gryckiewicz:So I'm gonna stop the share, I just got two quick questions for you to wrap up. So if somebody is just getting into Tonecoins, not just Morgans, but across the board, where do you suggest that they start? Any advice to avoid overpaying or buying the wrong thing?
Timothy Chen:Yeah. I'd say just start small. Coins, I'd say under a $100. And yeah, just start from there, you know, going to different coin shows, going to reputable dealers who offer a wide selection of coins. Yeah.
Timothy Chen:Just don't buy anything that is out of your budget, so to speak. And the worst thing that could happen is pretty much spending your entire allowance buying coins, toned coins that really don't command a huge premium. But in terms of like looking at how much coins would typically go for, check out auction records. I'm not being sponsored, but I mean some of the really great ones, you know, Stax is a great one. Heritage is a great one.
Timothy Chen:Great Collagen is a great one. Yeah. Just look at those auction records, how much those types of tone coins would would go for.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Okay. Very good. Yeah. I would say I mean, my experience is that you have to, sometimes you learn a whole lot through owning something and sometimes you have to take a little bit of a risk and as you take more risks and you kind of, you know, learn some of those risks pan out really well, some of them maybe don't pan out so much, Your gut feel for what it, where value lies. I think it kind of builds and can develop over time.
Tony Gryckiewicz:That's just something that I look back on and I say this is kind of helped me with my business and with collecting or whatever has been taking some chances along the way. So, but I think it's fantastic advice starting small, not spending some crazy number after kind of being convinced for, you know, ten minutes by somebody that this is worth, you know, a whole lot of money. Like do some research for sure. Absolutely. So what is one coin that you're excited about right now?
Tony Gryckiewicz:Anything that's something that's just kinda just come in or that you're looking to find? What is what is exciting, Timothy Chen, today in terms of, you know, coins and and and colorful coins or whatnot?
Timothy Chen:Yeah. I mean, to your point, I recently purchased an 81 s Morgan dollar, which is very, very common, but it's got really, really nice color. It's a 67 NGC 67 in a with a green tac, and I believe it's a seven plus shot eight. So a point like that, you know, I'm very excited to to hopefully get a get an upgrade on that one. But yeah.
Timothy Chen:Overall, just Tonecoins in general has have been really really great in terms of not only providing, you know, a return on my profit, but also in terms of just the joy of owning something that's cool, that's unique. I highly encourage anyone who really likes unique coins or coins with cool color. You know, you never really know, you know, what you can find, you know, at your local coin shop or at a coin show because there are definitely hidden gems to to be had, and I know that from from personal experience.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Alright. Cool. Very cool. Thanks a lot for doing this. Where can people find you today?
Tony Gryckiewicz:I mean, do you have a website? What's your main source of, you know, finding connecting with collectors? Tell us a little bit briefly.
Timothy Chen:So anyone, they could find me through my website, wing liberty rare coins dot com. They could directly also email me, winglibertyrarecoins@gmail.com. So I have my own, of course, my own personal website, but also my eBay store. I also have Instagram page, winged underscore liberty underscore rare underscore coins. Yeah.
Timothy Chen:So those are the primary ways that you guys can reach out to me if you guys have any questions or just go on chat about toned coins.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Anyway, that's that's awesome, man. Thank you for the information about reaching out to you for sure. Appreciate it. Appreciate you coming on, giving us little information here about these various areas. I think Tone Coins is a segment of the hobby that people lot a of people find very interesting.
Tony Gryckiewicz:It's been great to do a kind of a two part episode with a focus just on Morgans and then one a little bit of Morgans is, again, it's a big part of your business, but also these other denominations for people to get into that they can get that they can get into at much lower price points to enjoy some some works of art, so to speak. So anyways, thank you so much again for doing this. It's been great. And I guess I will see you at the the ANA show next month.
Timothy Chen:Yeah. Sounds good. Thank you very much, Tony, for for having me on here. And, yeah, I look forward to chatting with you again at the upcoming ANA show.
Tony Gryckiewicz:Alright. See you.
Timothy Chen:Alright. Take care. Bye.
